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The good, the bad, and the Keurig

Channel: Version History · Duration: 74:55 · source

[00:00] Coffee is everywhere. It's by most measures the second most popular beverage in the world, [00:05] just right there on the list after water. But if you've had coffee, you've almost certainly had [00:09] terrible coffee. There's a machine out there, though, that promises that not only will you [00:13] never have a bad cup of coffee again, you'll hardly have to do any work to make it. [00:18] From the Verge and Vox Media, this is Virgin History, a show about the best and worst and [00:23] strangest and most important products in tech history. I'm David Pierce, and today, [00:28] one cup at a time, it's the story of Keurig. [00:40] All right, we're back. It's time for some coffee. I've already had too much coffee, [00:44] and we're going to drink coffee in this episode. It's going to get very, very, very intense. [00:48] Joining me in the studio, Melissa McCart, the Northeast Editor at Eater. Welcome. [00:51] Thank you so much for having me. [00:53] Tell me about your current coffee-making setup. You wake up in the morning, what do you do? [00:58] I get on an app, and I order coffee, to be honest. But if I'm going to make it at home, [01:02] I do be letty, either single or double. I like the ritual of it. I like watching it [01:08] burble over. I like whipping a little bit of milk. But I have French press, Keurig, and a pot. [01:15] Just full of options. [01:16] Exactly. [01:16] But instead, you just order coffee. I respect this. I also do that too. [01:20] I have a giant bag of beans that arrives at my house once a month, and they have [01:26] started to pile up because I'm in a real coffee shop phase, and it's not going well for me. [01:30] Also joining us, Morgan Ekroth, the US Barista Champion, [01:33] and a creator and a barista, welcome to the show. [01:36] So glad to be here. [01:37] Morgan, this may be an unfair question to ask you as somebody who does [01:40] coffee in so many directions for a living, but you wake up, it's not a work day, [01:46] you're just making coffee to make coffee, or not making coffee as a chance. [01:50] What's your coffee routine? [01:51] Yeah, I'm like a classic V60 pour over person. I love espresso, I love filter coffee, [01:58] I love all the fun wacky ways to make coffee, but like average day, [02:01] I'm just, it's me and my pour over in my little kitchen scale. [02:04] I respect that. [02:05] Awesome. [02:06] I had a long run of being a Chemex guy. [02:08] Oh yeah. [02:09] Because Chemex to me felt like right in between, [02:12] this is upsetting to say out loud, but I don't have the patience to be a pour over person. [02:16] It's just- [02:17] Valid, valid. [02:18] It's one tick too long, I'm like, I would like to be drinking this already. [02:21] I used to be a restaurant critic before I took the job at Eater, [02:25] and the last thing that I was willing to be fussy about was coffee, [02:30] and so I was like proud to be like an egalitarian bodega coffee person. [02:36] So I think my tolerance for bad coffee is very high, so let's bring in the Keurig. [02:41] So okay, so this is the right headspace to be in coming into talking about the Keurig. [02:45] And the backstory of Keurig, which I kind of knew nothing about, [02:48] this machine has just sort of like been in the world for a while. [02:51] It turns out to be really fascinating. [02:52] And it starts in like the 1980s basically, with these two guys, [02:59] John Sylvan and Peter Dragone, who had been roommates at Colby. [03:02] They got other jobs, and then they were just sort of out in the world, [03:06] and there's this like mythological startup story. [03:09] Everybody has a sort of story to tell about themselves, and it's only ever half true. [03:13] But the half true story of where this came from is John Sylvan has a job. [03:18] He's at a company called Analog Devices, which sounds like a made-up name of a company, but sure. [03:23] And one of the things he had to do was pay the coffee vendor. [03:28] He had to like round up money from his co-workers to pay the person who brought them coffee. [03:32] And he hated this job. [03:34] It was a super annoying thing to do to have to go around and, you know, [03:37] harangue his co-workers for money. [03:38] And also the coffee was trash. [03:41] Like this is office coffee, which has since time immemorial been horrible. [03:45] It's like a requirement or something. [03:47] Yeah. [03:47] It's like the best case scenario is somebody who knows how to make coffee, [03:52] makes a good pot of coffee, and then it sits for several hours and burns. [03:55] Oh, yeah. [03:55] Right? That's as good as it gets. [03:57] The worst case scenario is somebody who doesn't know how to make coffee, [04:01] dumps a bunch of crap into a coffee maker, makes a horrible cup of coffee, [04:05] and then it sits there for several hours and burns. [04:07] It's just bad times everywhere. [04:09] Yes, absolutely. [04:10] So John has this epiphany where he's like, what if I could solve this whole problem? [04:15] What if there was a better way to make coffee at work that would make the pots better, [04:22] it would make the drinking experience better, it would make the whole thing better? [04:24] So he quits his job, goes home to his Boston apartment, and starts experimenting. [04:30] And from what I've come to understand, you should imagine like a mad scientist [04:34] very nearly blowing up his building over and over and over and over again [04:37] as he's trying to figure out what to do. [04:39] And he lands very quickly on this idea of what if there was just a little capsule [04:43] that you could take and you could put it in a coffee maker [04:46] and it would do something and then you would have coffee. [04:49] A true black box. [04:51] Exactly. [04:53] And there are a million complicated questions inside of this. [04:56] Morgan, I'm curious if you can just explain, [05:00] from a very basic sort of coffee making principle, [05:03] it seems like everything about this idea of take a capsule of coffee, [05:08] shove a bunch of water into it, magic happens, delicious coffee on the other side. [05:14] It's just like complete anathema to how we actually think about making good coffees. [05:19] Sure. [05:20] Well, you know, good is an interesting word because it's so very dependent person to person, [05:28] but it's like the idea kind of makes sense in the sense that we have like all of these variables [05:34] we get to play with when you're brewing coffee. [05:36] It's like you have your solvent and then you have the soluble product, [05:41] which is the ground coffee, and you get to play with temperature, [05:45] you get to play with time, how long things brew for, and you get to deal with pressure. [05:50] And like every single brew method that we do is basically just like tweaking these different [05:55] elements. [05:55] And so when you're trying to brew coffee, like really, really quickly, [05:59] you have to increase pressure, you have to increase temperature. [06:03] There are ways to do it, but tweaking all those variables for the sake of like one thing, [06:09] which is time, always leads to, I'll call it like changes in the final flavor profile. [06:15] Like you're going to get a different result by tweaking all of these. [06:20] It's not like there's a one answer that's going to come out at the bottom of this machine. [06:25] Changes in the flavor profile seems such a great euphemism for terrible coffee. [06:30] So John is making all this stuff. [06:34] He eventually brings in his friend, Peter, who had been working at Chiquita, [06:37] the banana company to help him out, gives him full partnership. [06:40] So they become 50, 50 partners in this company. [06:43] They name it Keurig, which apparently comes from the word excellence in Dutch. [06:48] Both Travis, our producer, and I ran this down. [06:50] And I would say the truth of that is like, yeah, it's like, [06:52] it's quotation marks, sort of. [06:55] Yeah, we're like, we're like near it, I would say. [06:58] Aspirational. [07:00] Yeah. [07:01] And he also said at one point that he picked that name because everyone likes the Dutch, [07:06] which sure. [07:08] Stokes, fossils, you know, that's my first impression, which is very positive. [07:13] Yeah, exactly. [07:15] And so Morgan, you mentioned pressure. [07:16] And it turns out one of the big things they had to figure out this whole time [07:19] was pressure. [07:21] Because like you said, one way to make coffee fast is to vastly increase the pressure [07:27] that you put on the beans and the water and this sort of this process. [07:31] The more you can compact it, the faster you can move stuff through. [07:33] But that leads to all kinds of problems, [07:36] including how do we not have this thing explode under the pressure that it's under. [07:40] And they had a bunch of early experiments and they basically, [07:44] have either of you ever done Jell-O shots? [07:45] In D.S. [07:46] This is no judgment. [07:47] Maybe just last week. [07:49] Listen, for science, this is what we do here. [07:52] So they bought a bunch of the essentially the containers [07:55] that you would put Jell-O shots in. [07:57] The little plastic ones from a company that made Jell-O shot containers. [08:01] They put coffee filter paper inside it and then sealed it closed with an iron. [08:05] And so this is like essentially a makeshift little K cup. [08:09] Fill it with coffee and then just experiment with all the different ways [08:14] to try and get water through it. [08:17] Different kinds of pressure, different speeds, different amounts of water, [08:19] different amounts of coffee, and just spend like months and months and months [08:23] dialing this thing in. [08:24] And their big idea from the very beginning is to sell this [08:27] to coffee distributors for essentially no money, [08:33] who will then put it in offices for free. [08:35] And they have this idea that all of their money [08:37] is going to come from selling these cups. [08:39] That it's a very, it's an old school like razors and blades model, right? [08:42] You sell the razors cheap and then the blades are expensive. [08:44] And this is their whole big idea. [08:46] This turns out to be a very good idea. [08:48] But one thing that happens along the way, [08:50] and this is a true warning to everyone who drinks too much coffee. [08:55] They were trying so many things and they were their own test market, right? [08:58] Like at this point, you're just sitting there drinking a thousand cups of coffee a day. [09:01] In 1985, John ends up in the hospital and he thinks he's having a heart attack. [09:06] It's amazing story. [09:08] And what actually happens is that John had caffeine poisoning, [09:11] which until the moment of reading about this, [09:12] I did not know was a thing that exists. [09:15] And he said his self-professed number was that he was probably [09:18] drinking 30 or 40 cups of coffee a day. [09:20] That is an incredible amount of liquid just to consume in one day. [09:26] Morgan, do you know anybody that this has happened to? [09:28] I don't. [09:29] You know, when I was reading about the story prior to this, [09:35] I kind of knew it was leading into caffeine poisoning. [09:37] I knew that was the direction where it went. [09:39] 30 to 40 cups was a truly shocking number. [09:43] So I'm actually curious for your perspective on this [09:46] as somebody who trains for competitions, [09:48] which is the only other thing I can think of [09:49] that would lead you to sort of like buy necessity, [09:52] drink a ton of coffee all the time. [09:54] Yeah. [09:54] So like when you're in full on sort of barista competition training, [09:59] how much coffee do you think you're drinking in a day? [10:00] You know, I, it's hard to like equate it to like cups necessarily, [10:05] but there will be days where you get like overly caffeinated very easily, [10:08] especially here, like we're drinking lots of espresso. [10:10] But it was funny because I was like, [10:12] I was like, my guy there, we can find ways to salt. [10:15] You can spit the coffee out. [10:18] There's, there's L3D like wine, like tasting wine. [10:22] I kind of love that he did this to himself. [10:24] I mean, it's true love of the game [10:27] to consume that much coffee and testing this. [10:29] My God, think of how many bad cups of coffee he drank. [10:32] It really love of the game. [10:33] I think it's exactly right. [10:34] So they end up getting a patent for the idea that would become [10:37] K cups, which, which becomes kind of the main thing [10:40] that they're, they're going to eventually sell. [10:43] Like a thing I don't think I really understood about [10:46] Keurig until starting to do this research is the K cup is the thing. [10:49] Yeah. [10:50] Like the, the, the brewer and stuff is all like the, [10:53] we have the, the first in-home Keurig here. [10:56] And in most ways it seems like this thing is actually extremely similar [10:59] to every other coffee thing that exists. [11:00] It has a place for water. [11:02] It pours that water through a thing and out comes coffee. [11:04] Like this actually turns out to not be the hard part. [11:06] That one time purchase too, [11:08] like in theory that thing is going to last you five, [11:12] maybe 10 years, ideally. [11:14] Yeah, totally. [11:15] But then K cups, even they understand at the beginning, [11:17] they're like, this is our thing. [11:18] This is the business. [11:19] This is the product. [11:20] This is the invention. [11:21] Spoiler alert. [11:22] John in particular winds up having a lot of feelings [11:26] about this thing that he invented later in his life. [11:28] And we will, we will talk about those feelings, [11:31] but they, they invent this thing. [11:33] They patent what would become K cups. [11:36] I can actually show you a picture of the patent. [11:37] It's pretty cool. [11:38] And it is like, it's kind of incredible how much [11:41] a detail there is in the patent that is just exactly [11:45] even what we think of as K cups now, [11:48] but also how unbelievably complicated the thing is. [11:52] They, they patent this thing in 1994 and there's, [11:54] there's a lot going on making it so that [11:57] nothing would come out before it was supposed to [11:59] was really hard, making it so that it would come out [12:00] when it was supposed to was really hard. [12:02] Keeping oxygen out was really hard [12:04] because you need to be able to preserve the coffee [12:06] for a long time while it's sitting in this. [12:08] This is like a series of very hard problems [12:10] that they think that they've solved. [12:11] An emphasis on think because it turns out [12:14] they keep trying this stuff and it keeps not working. [12:17] And there's a great Boston Globe story [12:20] from many years ago that details a lot of their history. [12:24] And I just want to read you one section from it [12:27] because this is the moment it all kind of almost falls apart. [12:29] It says, a few years into the project, [12:31] the Keurig prototypes were still so unreliable [12:33] that whenever the founders did a demonstration [12:34] for potential backers, they never knew what would happen. [12:37] Early models leaked puddles of coffee [12:39] onto expensive wooden conference tables. [12:41] The K cup filters would often split, [12:42] leading to drinks so laced with grounds [12:44] that they were alarmingly crunchy. [12:46] During one trip to meet potential financiers in Minnesota, [12:49] the founders made the mistake of checking the luggage [12:51] containing their trove of homemade K cups. [12:52] Once aloft, the lack of pressurization in the cargo hold [12:55] caused them to burst. [12:56] Sylvan and Dragoan stayed up all night [12:58] creating several dozen more by hand. [12:59] So this is like years in. [13:01] This is the state of Keurig. [13:03] It's very charming, truly. [13:05] Like the idea of this overnight work session [13:08] that had to happen. [13:09] It feels like totally best in show [13:11] or like spinal tap for coffee nerds. [13:14] So what I wonder though is there's almost something here [13:18] where it's like, why would you keep trying [13:20] this thing at some point? [13:22] And I kind of wonder like, Melissa, as you think about this, [13:24] going back, we're almost 30 years ago at this point. [13:27] Is it super obvious that they're right [13:30] and this is clearly a thing to do [13:32] and there's tons of money in it [13:33] and if we can just crack this, it's worth it? [13:34] Or are these just like complete lunatics [13:36] who can't stop themselves from doing this? [13:38] Well, I think if we look at 30 years ago [13:40] before the rise of specialty coffee, [13:42] it's totally right because coffee was just bad everywhere. [13:46] True. [13:47] And everyone had to be in an office [13:49] or some kind of place where there was like [13:51] a person who lorded over the coffee [13:53] that made it especially bad. [13:55] So in theory, it seems like this can be less bad [13:59] and my life will be better. [14:02] But then with the intersection of specialty coffee [14:05] and this, then it became lunacy, right? [14:08] So like, whenever Starbucks came, [14:11] this is where Morgan, you could give us the pin [14:15] in terms of the date of the rise of specialty coffee. [14:17] Yeah. [14:17] Like, once we started to shop [14:21] going out for specialty coffee that wasn't terrible, [14:23] then it just became like, what are you doing? [14:25] I thought it was most interesting [14:27] looking at the timing of all of this [14:29] because it was like all the, [14:31] a lot of the thought process and development was happening [14:34] like what I would consider like slightly before [14:36] like third wave really took over [14:38] is like the predominant like US coffee drinking movement. [14:41] But then once we get a little bit further here, [14:45] once we actually have like actuation [14:47] of this machine to market, [14:48] like it very much aligns with the rise of specialty [14:53] and coffee getting so much better in cafes. [14:56] I think it's really interesting to see [14:57] these two happening parallel. [14:59] And it's kind of weird that they happen in parallel, right? [15:01] That all at once we're running towards [15:04] the most convenient coffee we've ever had [15:07] kind of quality aside. [15:08] Yeah. [15:09] And I think it is worth saying that they're here, [15:11] their goal is to make better coffee, [15:13] not like for the world, [15:15] but for one very specific place, [15:17] which is your office, [15:18] which definitely for sure has horrible coffee. [15:22] And everyone wants a different coffee too. [15:24] Totally. [15:25] And so I think it's, [15:26] I would have assumed that this [15:28] and kind of third wave coffee culture, [15:31] like from Starbucks all the way up the chain [15:34] would have run into each other, [15:35] but they actually are able to exist next to each other [15:38] for a surprisingly long time. [15:40] Yeah. [15:40] But okay, so this in 1997, [15:43] something very weird happens, [15:44] which is that both founders of Keurig [15:47] end up leaving Keurig. [15:48] They raise some money. [15:49] They first, I think it's $50,000 [15:51] and then I think they raise a million dollars. [15:53] So they're like, [15:55] they're close enough [15:55] and people are bought in enough to this idea [15:58] that they want to make it a thing. [15:59] But the investors look at this disaster [16:02] of a prototype situation [16:04] and say, we need to install [16:05] some of our own leadership. [16:06] John gets mad, [16:08] doesn't want to deal with this new [16:09] corporate structure of people [16:10] who are watching over him [16:11] and he leaves [16:13] and he makes Keurig buy him out [16:15] for $50,000. [16:17] They buy his half of the company for $50,000. [16:20] Spoiler alert, [16:21] that was a bad deal by John Sylvan. [16:23] Peter, the other co-founder, [16:25] leaves a few months later, [16:26] but he keeps his investment. [16:28] He keeps his part of the company [16:30] for a long time. [16:31] And that ends up going quite well for him. [16:34] So that's in 1997. [16:35] By 1998, [16:36] this new team and new leadership [16:38] has actually made the thing work. [16:41] They build a K-cup factory. [16:43] They start installing machines in offices [16:46] and immediately, [16:48] people start to love this thing. [16:49] I say they kind of work [16:50] because they actually genuinely [16:52] only kind of work. [16:53] They still have lots of problems. [16:54] They break down. [16:55] They spend a lot of their time [16:56] going to people's offices to fix them. [16:58] But no one who gets one of these [17:00] ever wants to get rid of it. [17:01] Because it immediately solves [17:03] a really obvious problem, [17:04] which I think is really fascinating. [17:05] And Melissa, it's exactly what you described. [17:07] Everybody wants better coffee, [17:08] but also everybody wants their coffee. [17:12] And this seems like an insight [17:13] that the Keurig folks had [17:14] that winds up being really important, [17:16] which is not only can we make the coffee [17:19] a little more sort of personalized [17:20] in that you can make it when you want it, [17:22] but actually we can have different kinds of coffee [17:24] for different kinds of people [17:26] all in one system. [17:27] The first machine, by the way, [17:28] was called the B2000, [17:30] which is a hilarious name [17:31] for your first product. [17:32] It's so star-tracked. [17:36] The Keurig B2000, our initial launch. [17:40] It was huge. [17:41] Like we think of Keurig as like this little thing [17:43] that brews a cup of coffee at a time, [17:44] but these old ones were more like [17:47] diner coffee systems. [17:49] They were big. [17:50] They cost $900. [17:52] You had to hook them up to a water line. [17:53] These were like industrial-sized coffee makers, [17:56] even though they only made one cup at a time. [17:58] But again, this thing works, right? [18:00] People are into it. [18:00] They continue to validate the idea, [18:02] the thing continues to get better, [18:03] and then the company decides [18:04] it wants to branch out and get into people's homes. [18:07] Again, this is not a gimme at all, really. [18:09] This is like still going to be an expensive machine. [18:12] It's still going to be complicated. [18:13] It's a new set of things [18:14] they have to figure out how to solve. [18:15] People don't want to hook this thing up [18:16] to their water line, [18:17] but they decide they're going to do this. [18:19] And we should take a break here, [18:21] but my question before we do, [18:22] does this idea, like if we rewind all the way back, [18:26] should we have allowed this to happen? [18:28] Keurig is an office coffee thing. [18:31] I think like unparalleled good idea, right? [18:34] Like made everybody's office coffee situation better. [18:37] I think as we look at the long sweep of history, [18:40] the in-home Keurig ends up being [18:43] a much more complicated thing. [18:45] So if we're going back in time, [18:48] should we just prevent this from happening? [18:50] Or was this just an idea whose time has come [18:51] and it was going to happen no matter what? [18:53] Oh, it's a tricky, tricky question. [18:56] You know, I think the thing I often like [19:01] think about with the Keurig, [19:02] and especially when we think about like [19:05] kind of like the pipeline from like, [19:06] you start brewing your own coffee at home. [19:08] And then like ideally, you know, [19:10] especially when, you know, [19:11] for us that work in like especially coffee industry [19:13] or like cooperate in that world a lot, [19:15] the idea is like people kind of have [19:17] their stepping in point to making coffee. [19:19] And then ideally, [19:20] that is kind of a pipeline that leads them [19:22] to want to drink better coffee down the road, [19:25] kind of explore that rabbit hole. [19:27] But like the Keurig is such a perfect machine [19:31] for so many people in the sense that [19:33] it's like wildly convenient. [19:35] It was and is like such a status symbol as well [19:39] that it's like it kind of became [19:41] the stopping point where people were like, [19:43] actually, this is actually this is great. [19:45] We don't need to kind of progress [19:46] down this rabbit hole. [19:47] And so there's this conundrum [19:49] where I'm so wildly impressed [19:53] and like in awe of the Keurig, [19:55] but also like kind of simultaneously hate it. [19:58] Like it's a very like, yeah, [20:00] it's like I'm so truly split on it [20:02] from like a product design standpoint [20:04] versus like the impact standpoint. [20:06] I mean, I also think that there's [20:08] like a sort of 1950s like [20:12] housekeeping element to it. [20:13] I mean, if you're buying K-cups, [20:15] you never even see coffee grounds. [20:18] And I mean, I still spill coffee grounds [20:21] and like beans and like make entire [20:24] like messes of the counter. [20:26] And like that will never be something [20:28] you have to deal with. [20:29] And I think that was attractive [20:30] for a lot of people. [20:31] Yeah, totally. [20:32] Yeah, I think to me, the part of this [20:34] that always been so complicated [20:35] is like, are we is the Keurig [20:38] sort of a perfect example of us [20:40] just convening ourselves to death, right? [20:42] Like, have we come so far [20:44] that we can't even be bothered [20:46] to make a pot of coffee in the morning? [20:48] And maybe that's a ridiculous way [20:50] to think about it. [20:50] But that is also the part of me [20:51] that's conflicted is like, [20:53] this is are we getting away [20:54] from the thing that this is [20:55] actually supposed to be [20:57] because it's slightly easier to do. [20:59] Like we're muting our highs and lows [21:01] just for the sake of like even. [21:05] And there's nothing more [21:06] that way than Keurig. [21:08] Yeah. [21:08] Okay, so we should take a break here. [21:10] But this is we leave ourselves here [21:12] at 2004 when the first in-home Keurig [21:15] start to ship and spoiler alert, [21:17] it goes super, super well. [21:20] But we'll talk about that in a sec. [21:20] Let's take a break. [21:21] We'll be right back. [21:26] All right, we're back. [21:27] We have a new friend in the studio. [21:29] This is the Keurig K-Mini Go [21:32] which Travis, our producer, [21:33] just brought us. [21:34] It's cute and it's white [21:35] and it's blinking and Melissa, [21:37] you and I are going to drink some coffee. [21:38] Yes. [21:39] Morgan, I'm sorry you can't. [21:40] It's okay. [21:41] I'm there in spirit. [21:43] It seems like you have 60 or 70 [21:46] different coffee machines [21:47] in your immediate vicinity [21:48] and none of them are Keurig. [21:49] Definitely not lacking for coffee brewers. [21:52] So I get out the K-cup [21:54] which is a couple inches tall. [21:56] It's white and round and plasticky. [22:00] You can just do K-cup ASMR [22:02] for the rest of the show. [22:03] And I think basically every machine [22:06] since the beginning of Keurig [22:07] has worked the same way. [22:08] You have this thing, [22:09] you pull up on the handle [22:10] and it pulls it up [22:11] and then you put the K-cup in the place, [22:15] the hole for the K-cup [22:16] and you put it down and ready. [22:18] I'm going to put the mic on this thing [22:19] because this noise is very important. [22:23] That's the thing that makes it work. [22:26] And then the thing starts blinking [22:27] asking me how many ounces I want. [22:29] I'm going to hit 10 [22:30] because I don't want to sleep ever again. [22:33] And then I have to put a mug in. [22:36] Finish the one coffee. [22:37] We're rebooting it right now. [22:39] You put the mug under [22:41] and you hit it. [22:42] It's really true. [22:43] Like looking at this now, [22:44] John Sylvan is right. [22:44] This is just a different look [22:47] of the same thing Keurig has been [22:48] for 30 years. [22:50] It's kind of wild. [22:51] And then it brews. [22:52] It's like a leak from a rainstorm. [22:54] I know it really is. [22:55] It's very, I'm going to point that mic in. [22:57] I can hear it slightly in the background. [22:58] It's very relaxing. [23:00] Oh, that's lovely. [23:04] Like you're in a Japanese garden. [23:07] Just a very slowly dripping waterfall. [23:11] I assume that was on purpose [23:12] by the Keurig folks. [23:14] How do we make this sound lovely [23:15] while you drink coffee? [23:16] We have Green Mountain, Nantucket Blend, [23:17] and Melissa. [23:18] We also have original donut shop coffee, [23:20] regular medium roast coffee. [23:22] So I guess my question is, [23:24] shall I have the donut? [23:25] I think you have to. [23:27] It's up to you. [23:28] Yeah, I'm going to do that. [23:28] Coffee is a personal decision, Melissa. [23:31] And I would never make that for you. [23:33] All right. [23:34] Okay, now comes, [23:35] I would say the first annoying thing [23:36] about a Keurig, [23:37] which is what do you do [23:38] with the K-cup? [23:40] And my answer is usually [23:42] you put it on the counter. [23:43] Clearly a dripping one [23:45] across my house. [23:46] Hot water on your hand is you. [23:50] It's toasty. [23:51] Okay, so I've chosen [23:53] the original donut shop, [23:56] like either a combination [23:58] of diner nostalgia [23:59] and or Dunkin Donuts [24:01] if you're from Boston. [24:04] I'm going to press strong, [24:07] which is at the top corner. [24:09] I would like a strong cup of coffee [24:10] and I'm going to guess 10 ounces [24:15] even though that's probably generous. [24:16] Then you have to press [24:16] the big brew button [24:17] right in the middle. [24:18] And now there's a whirring sound [24:21] and soon there's going to be [24:23] the scent of coffee [24:24] that's going to make it feel [24:25] like it's the morning. [24:26] It does smell nice. [24:27] It does. [24:28] All right, so while we're brewing, [24:30] this obviously not the first one [24:32] that shipped. [24:32] The one behind this [24:33] is the first one that shipped. [24:33] This is called the B100. [24:35] And this is, again, [24:36] very funny name [24:37] for your first product. [24:38] But this is the one [24:39] that Keurig decides to ship. [24:40] They want to get it in people's houses. [24:41] They spent a long time [24:43] getting the size down, [24:44] making it sort of simple and easy [24:46] and look non-threatening. [24:48] It is incredibly uncomplicated, [24:50] which is a big part of the deal. [24:51] One thing I really enjoyed about this [24:52] and it's useful to remember [24:53] that the idea of this [24:55] does not exist, right? [24:56] That sounds like a stupid thing to say, [24:57] but this is not an experience [24:59] people had had before. [25:00] This is starting to become a thing [25:02] as the original in-office Keurig [25:05] became so popular. [25:06] Other companies started [25:07] to build things like this. [25:08] So actually Keurig [25:10] in its in-home products [25:11] was not that far ahead of the game [25:13] in that sense. [25:14] But people had not had [25:15] this experience before. [25:16] So people didn't actually believe [25:17] that this could possibly [25:18] make decent coffee. [25:20] So the big marketing push for Keurig [25:22] is they would actually go to stores, [25:25] grocery stores, all kinds of places [25:27] around the country [25:28] and just sit there [25:29] and make coffee for people. [25:30] That was the whole marketing strategy. [25:32] Like Costco and the samples. [25:33] A hundred percent. [25:34] And it was the thing [25:35] that they were trying [25:36] to prove to people [25:37] was that it was good [25:38] and that it was fast. [25:40] And those turned out to be [25:41] the two things [25:43] that really made Keurig work [25:45] for people is, [25:46] oh, I don't have to go [25:48] through the process [25:48] and the waiting of making [25:49] a whole cup of coffee. [25:50] I can go from nothing [25:51] to a cup of coffee [25:52] with essentially no effort [25:54] and like 60 seconds. [25:56] And that ends up [25:57] being a powerful thing. [25:58] If I'm remembering too correctly, [25:59] Keurig at launch two [26:01] was one of the more [26:02] premium models, correct? [26:03] This was far and above [26:06] more than what people [26:07] were spending on their average [26:08] home coffee maker. [26:10] Oh, totally. [26:10] Yeah, the thing was, [26:11] the thing was, [26:12] it was like a couple hundred dollars [26:13] and it was not. [26:14] Even today, that feels, [26:16] that feels pricey. [26:16] Oh yeah. [26:17] Absolutely. [26:18] So I have to say [26:19] the Green Mountain [26:20] smelled delightful [26:22] when it was brewing [26:24] and this smells like burned coffee. [26:26] It smells like it burned already. [26:28] It really does. [26:28] It does. [26:29] The smell in here [26:30] has gotten notably worse [26:31] since you started. [26:33] I know. [26:34] Cheers. [26:35] Morgan, I'm sorry you're not here. [26:36] It's okay. [26:36] Cheers. [26:39] And it tastes like it. [26:42] See, mine's actually not bad. [26:44] That is like the hot piece of cup of coffee. [26:45] I almost felt like I saw [26:46] like a recoil [26:47] that happened a little bit. [26:48] It's hot. [26:49] It is, it is hot. [26:51] This is ordinarily [26:52] the coffee I would put [26:53] the most milk in [26:54] just to, it brings it down [26:56] and it evens it out. [26:57] But this is, [26:57] this is not the worst [26:58] cup of coffee I've ever had. [26:59] Okay. [26:59] I have to say also, [27:00] this is, I mean, yours, [27:02] I bet, is better. [27:03] But like the, the strength of this [27:06] is better than the one [27:06] I make at home. [27:07] But I have one of those, [27:10] fill your own beans. [27:12] But I clearly am not [27:13] putting enough coffee in it. [27:14] Yeah. [27:15] So again, this is, [27:16] this is sort of the whole idea, [27:17] right, is they try to make this [27:19] an unscrewable product. [27:22] And in the first one, [27:23] there aren't these options [27:24] for like, do you want it [27:24] weak or strong? [27:25] How many ounces do you want? [27:26] It's essentially just a power button [27:28] and a brew button. [27:29] The idea is, don't worry about it. [27:32] We will handle the coffee for you. [27:34] You just put in the coffee [27:35] that you want [27:35] and out will come delicious coffee. [27:36] This works very well for people. [27:39] So this thing is immediately a hit. [27:40] It gets great reviews. [27:41] Lots of people start to buy it. [27:43] It sort of immediately validates [27:45] this whole single serve coffee thing [27:48] in people's minds. [27:49] And then two years [27:50] after the first one comes out [27:51] in 2006, Green Mountain, [27:53] this company, [27:55] which is one of Keurig's [27:56] biggest investors [27:57] and a huge coffee maker at the time [28:00] just acquires all of Keurig. [28:02] It winds up valuing Keurig [28:04] at about 160 million dollars, [28:06] which I would remind you, [28:08] John Sylvan sold his half [28:09] of the company for 50 grand. [28:11] That's a tough beat. [28:13] Melissa, you were saying before [28:14] that one of the funny things [28:15] about this story [28:15] is that Green Mountain bought Keurig. [28:17] Yes, it's sort of like today [28:18] you think about like environmentalism [28:20] and Bernie Sanders, [28:22] not like capitalist Keurig [28:26] K-Pods. [28:29] Yeah, it's very true. [28:31] So at this point, [28:32] the sort of Keurig story [28:34] on its own, the Brewer story, [28:36] moves very fast. [28:38] They now come in lots of shapes and sizes. [28:39] They start to have more expensive models [28:42] and less expensive models. [28:43] They make models [28:43] that can brew a pot of coffee [28:45] and a single cup of coffee. [28:46] They branch out into hot chocolate [28:48] and tea. [28:48] They start trying to do more stuff. [28:50] But fundamentally, [28:51] it is still the thing [28:52] that it always was, right? [28:53] It is a thing that you put a pot into, [28:56] you stick your coffee mug under, [28:57] and it makes you coffee. [28:58] The end. [28:58] Then two things simultaneously [29:00] start to happen, [29:01] which I think are very interesting. [29:02] One, everybody else tries [29:04] to get in this game. [29:05] And the first way a lot of people [29:07] try to get into this game [29:08] is by making K-cups [29:10] that are not made by Keurig, [29:13] essentially bootleg K-cups. [29:15] And because this is the business, [29:17] right? [29:18] They're still selling these things [29:19] and not making a huge amount of money. [29:20] All of the money is in the K-cups [29:21] because like per cup, [29:23] it's way more expensive [29:25] to make Keurig coffee [29:26] than it is to just brew a pot of coffee. [29:28] But there's nothing preventing [29:31] other people from putting [29:32] their stuff in these machines. [29:34] So other people start to do. [29:35] So they're, on the one hand, [29:36] this is great news, right? [29:37] Like all of a sudden, [29:38] the amount of different kinds of coffee [29:41] you can get in K-cup form [29:43] just explodes. [29:44] Keurig decides to fight this [29:47] in a big, big, big way [29:48] because this is the company's money maker. [29:50] So they do essentially two things. [29:52] They become kind of a patent troll. [29:54] They start suing people. [29:55] They start picking big fights [29:56] or rather patents. [29:57] And they release a new Keurig [30:00] with DRM. [30:01] And this Keurig will only brew [30:04] Keurig official K-cups. [30:06] And this I would say [30:07] is the first giant dent [30:09] in the reputation of Keurig [30:11] as not a company [30:12] that cares so much [30:13] about making great coffee [30:14] but is just trying to sell you [30:15] really expensive K-cups. [30:17] This is one of my favorite [30:18] sort of alternate universe moments [30:19] of this story, [30:20] which is if Keurig had decided [30:23] not to pick that fight [30:24] and close down [30:25] and try to sort of own [30:26] the whole experience of itself. [30:27] And instead had just tried [30:28] to like open way up [30:30] and become this like open platform [30:32] for lots of people [30:33] to make lots of coffee, [30:34] lots of different ways. [30:35] Maybe like the whole idea [30:37] of single serve coffee [30:38] and the way that we think about [30:40] what Keurig is [30:41] and the way that we make coffee [30:42] might now might have changed [30:43] in really cool interesting ways. [30:45] Morgan, I'm curious [30:46] for your thoughts on this [30:46] as like a from a pure [30:48] like how we make coffee experiment. [30:51] Is there a world in which Keurig [30:54] sort of says everybody make coffee [30:56] in our pot the way that you want. [30:57] It's just a pot. [30:58] Do whatever you want. [30:59] And we get like a whole unbelievable range [31:01] of cool kinds of coffee [31:02] inside of Keurig [31:03] or like is a cake up, [31:04] a cake up, a cake up. [31:05] You know, it's kind of interesting [31:06] because I like love the idea [31:09] of a world where, [31:10] you know, you have specialty roasters, [31:14] you have like your mom and pop shops [31:15] like all able to sell their coffee [31:18] in this way [31:19] that everyone can experience it [31:20] the same way brewed well [31:22] like in their homes. [31:23] And I think because Keurig [31:26] didn't allow that [31:27] and then kind of like [31:28] forced people to work [31:30] within their systems, [31:31] get really used to like [31:32] the pod systems [31:33] in the last like five or six years [31:36] we've seen a lot of new [31:38] different branded brewers come out [31:40] that are emulating [31:41] that sort of pod system. [31:43] It feels very familiar [31:45] but it targets towards that [31:46] like higher end [31:47] more customizable market. [31:48] And so I like I feel like [31:50] we're kind of seen a little bit [31:51] of like how that alternate universe [31:53] would have played out now [31:55] all these years later [31:55] with different tech. [31:56] But you know looking back [31:58] it's like I fully understand [32:00] why they did what they did. [32:01] It makes a ton of sense [32:03] but I think it could have been [32:06] such a cool world to see [32:09] everyone be able to opt [32:10] into this like open source [32:11] coffee brewing system. [32:13] Absolutely. [32:14] I agree. I think there just would [32:15] have been something so cool. [32:16] And this especially gets weird [32:17] in 2012 which is when [32:18] the K-cut patent expires. [32:21] That's when the competition [32:22] sort of explodes. [32:23] Keurig starts to lose some of its shine. [32:24] This is the moment there were [32:25] like a million Keurig competitors out there. [32:27] Everybody was starting to make [32:28] weird different kinds of K-cups. [32:29] And then they sort of lock [32:30] it down again with the DRM [32:33] and this becomes a big [32:35] sort of reputational problem. [32:36] But the bigger reputational problem [32:38] which is I almost just said brewing [32:41] and that's a pun that sucks. [32:43] Which is also starting to happen [32:46] around the same time [32:48] is that people are starting [32:49] to question the environmental costs [32:52] of Keurig and K-cups in particular. [32:55] Melissa I know you've been [32:57] you've been reading up [32:57] and researching on this. [32:58] Like my sense is this becomes [32:59] a huge deal and a huge problem [33:01] for Keurig very quickly. [33:04] I think so. [33:05] I mean I think that it parallels [33:07] with the rise of like Instagram [33:10] for example when there's more [33:11] like of calling out of businesses [33:13] or call out culture [33:14] because it's sort of like popcorn [33:17] that can't control the narrative anymore [33:18] because there are so many platforms [33:20] for them to get essentially called out [33:24] for how they're harming the environment. [33:26] And also at a time when there's [33:27] an uptick of people politically [33:30] and personally caring [33:32] about the environment where like [33:33] if that were at this moment [33:34] where it's sort of muted a bit [33:38] that might not be the case [33:39] but just at that trajectory [33:41] it was a big deal. [33:42] Yeah and this hits a really [33:43] interesting point in 2014. [33:46] Mother Jones runs this story [33:48] where they did math that said [33:50] you could circle the globe [33:52] with all of the K-cups [33:53] that had been produced in that year [33:54] if you just line them up side by side [33:56] you could circle the globe [33:57] ten and a half times. [33:58] Which is A, a testament [33:59] to how unbelievably successful [34:01] this thing had become. [34:02] It was just absolutely ubiquitous. [34:04] Like I feel like there was a time [34:06] where you couldn't go into [34:10] like a dentist's office, [34:12] a house, [34:13] a debt clinic, [34:16] anywhere people sat down [34:18] there was a Keurig. [34:19] It was unbelievable. [34:21] Like it was just completely [34:22] ubiquitous in society. [34:23] And so Mother Jones runs this story [34:24] and I think it's something [34:25] about that image of that [34:28] many K-cups being made [34:29] circling the globe ten [34:30] and a half times stuck. [34:32] And that number, Keurig has disputed [34:34] that number many times. [34:37] But I think even that, [34:39] the dispute says [34:40] it's sort of directionally correct [34:42] and has haunted them for forever. [34:45] And as this is starting to happen [34:48] this video comes out [34:50] called Kill the K-cup. [34:51] Do you guys remember this? [34:52] Yes. [34:52] Let me just play [34:54] the Kill the K-cup video [34:55] so you can see it. [35:05] We're in an office [35:06] and there's an explosion. [35:09] This is so wonderfully old school YouTube. [35:12] And outside it starts cleaning K-cups. [35:22] There's a huge spaceship [35:23] it looks kind of like a cupcake. [35:26] Whoa! [35:27] Launching K-cups. [35:30] People are calling on the ground. [35:33] And then there's the K-cup monster. [35:36] So good Godzilla. [35:39] I love this visual of like [35:41] the army firing machine guns [35:43] at a K-cup monster. [35:47] K-cups invading Earth. [35:49] The sound design is wonderful. [35:51] It's really good. [35:52] And then it ends with this big [35:54] kill the K-cup [35:55] before it kills our planet. [35:57] Hashtag kill the K-cup. [35:59] Incredible. [36:00] This goes so viral [36:03] and becomes a huge problem [36:06] for Keurig. [36:07] Kill the K-cup [36:08] becomes this like trending topic [36:10] all over social media. [36:12] We end up with this [36:13] like long running problem. [36:15] And by the way, [36:16] the top comment I think [36:17] on the YouTube video [36:18] for Kill the K-cup [36:20] says it appears to be [36:22] from a YouTube account [36:23] belonging to John Sylvan, [36:24] the creator of Keurig. [36:26] And it says, [36:27] sorry, PS, I don't use them. [36:30] Wow. [36:30] I was not 100% able to confirm [36:33] that it was John, [36:34] but I'm pretty sure it was. [36:36] And it certainly looks like it was. [36:38] In the course of figuring out [36:39] what's going on here, [36:41] it turns out that the big culprit here [36:42] of all the stuff going on [36:43] is the cups themselves [36:45] are made out of what's called [36:46] number seven plastic. [36:48] And number seven plastic [36:49] is essentially the other category of plastic. [36:52] It could just mean anything, [36:54] whatever you want it to be. [36:55] And it turns out [36:56] this kind of plastic [36:57] is very hard to recycle. [36:59] And even if you do recycle it, [37:01] it's very dangerous [37:02] for the people [37:02] who have to process it. [37:03] So Keurig comes out and says, [37:04] actually, it's not as bad as you think. [37:07] Most of the parts are recyclable. [37:08] And the response to that [37:09] is everybody's like, [37:10] well, who in their right mind [37:12] is going to neatly take apart [37:14] each one of their K-cups [37:15] in order to recycle [37:16] some of the parts [37:17] that are recyclable. [37:17] And then Keurig also makes a case, [37:19] which I think is more interesting [37:22] and compelling, [37:23] which is that [37:24] there's a really strong case [37:25] to be made that pods [37:26] are actually more efficient [37:26] in their brewing. [37:27] They use the coffee grounds [37:30] more efficiently [37:31] than some other ways [37:32] of brewing coffee, [37:33] that the machines [37:34] use electricity more efficiently, [37:37] that there are some real upsides [37:38] to this. [37:38] And actually, this debate [37:40] has turned out to be [37:40] more complicated [37:42] than I realized. [37:43] But it does seem like [37:45] there is essentially [37:46] no argument to be made [37:47] that the K-cups themselves [37:48] are anything other [37:49] than kind of an environmental [37:52] disaster. [37:52] And then the other thing [37:53] that happens [37:54] right around this same time [37:55] is the Atlantic does an interview [37:57] with John, the co-founder, [37:59] who says [38:00] that he doesn't own a Keurig. [38:02] He says in an interview [38:03] that he had bought one [38:05] to sort of take it apart [38:06] and see what had changed [38:07] and was surprised [38:07] at how little had changed [38:08] in essentially 20 years [38:10] that it was basically still [38:11] the thing that they had designed. [38:13] And then he was kind of like, [38:14] I don't know how you'd make it [38:15] better, it works. [38:16] But he said he didn't have a Keurig. [38:18] And then the quote from him is, [38:19] it's not like drip coffee [38:20] is tough to make. [38:22] Incredible. [38:25] So excellent. [38:27] Yeah. [38:27] Also, it's at that time, [38:30] so this is 2015, [38:31] there were studies [38:32] that estimated that one [38:33] in three households [38:34] in the United States [38:35] had a pod-based coffee machine. [38:37] One in three, [38:37] like this thing had absolutely [38:38] taken over the world. [38:40] Yeah, Keurig sold [38:41] 9 billion K-cups that year [38:43] in 2015, that one year. [38:45] So John, who is evidently [38:47] just excited to light [38:48] this company on fire, [38:49] continues in this interview [38:50] with the Atlantic [38:50] no matter what they say [38:51] about recycling, [38:52] those things will never [38:53] be recyclable. [38:54] The plastic is a specialized [38:55] plastic made of [38:55] four different layers. [38:56] Scorched earth. [38:58] Yeah, and he ends up [38:58] on this like years-long [39:00] apology tour, [39:01] essentially saying, [39:03] I regret this invention. [39:04] We never should have done this. [39:06] It's so bad for the planet [39:07] that it was a bad idea [39:09] and we never should have [39:09] done it in the first place. [39:10] I mean, I've been looking [39:12] at the Green Mountain container [39:14] and it still says, [39:15] peel the lid and dispose [39:17] and recycle, check locally [39:19] to recycle empty cup. [39:21] Like, why would you do this [39:22] for every pod? [39:23] No one did. [39:24] Like, just factually no one did. [39:26] No one. [39:28] And John was like developing [39:30] these ideas he seems to have [39:32] sort of simultaneously [39:33] dissuaded himself [39:34] that this was a good idea [39:35] and also had some ideas [39:37] about what he might do. [39:37] And his big idea was [39:40] take coffee [39:40] and put it in a centrifuge [39:41] and it comes apart. [39:42] Then you take the parts [39:43] and combine them back [39:44] when you make the coffee. [39:45] So you could use something [39:46] like a ketchup foil pack [39:47] and the separate parts [39:47] won't become oxidized [39:48] when they're stored [39:49] and transported. [39:50] Then you can combine them again [39:51] at the last minute [39:51] while you're making coffee. [39:52] I bring this up [39:53] because I have this memory [39:54] of a few years ago [39:57] a bunch of companies [39:58] trying to find ways to do [40:00] not quite exactly this, [40:01] but this question of like, [40:03] are there other better ways [40:05] to make coffee last longer? [40:08] Like, I don't know if either [40:09] of you ever remember [40:10] this company Comiteer. [40:11] Yes. [40:11] I was going to bring them up. [40:13] Oh, yeah. [40:13] Yeah. [40:13] Okay. Tell us about Comiteer. [40:15] Yeah. Comiteer is [40:16] an interesting company [40:17] that does a single-serpent coffee [40:20] and they come in these small, [40:22] I believe they're aluminum capsules. [40:25] They look like pods. [40:26] Essentially, it's a very familiar shape, [40:27] but inside is essentially [40:30] a frozen coffee concentrate. [40:31] They brew it [40:32] at a concentrated form. [40:34] It's very proprietary, [40:35] but essentially, [40:35] they're using liquid nitrogen [40:37] to freeze coffee [40:38] at ideally peak freshness [40:40] and then you store these pods [40:42] in the freezer [40:43] and then in the morning [40:44] to make this coffee, [40:46] you drop a frozen pod [40:48] into your cup, [40:49] add hot water [40:50] and it dilutes down [40:51] to that drinkable ratio. [40:53] So it's like very, [40:54] very similar in the sense [40:54] that it takes you 15, [40:56] 20 seconds in the morning [40:58] to like assemble this. [40:59] Is it good coffee? [40:59] What do you think? [41:00] It's pretty dang good. [41:01] Comiteer, like wow. [41:03] Well, it's very tasty, [41:05] but also they have gone [41:08] like off the bat immediately [41:10] the route of not doing [41:12] a bulk of the coffee, [41:14] like sourcing [41:15] and roasting themselves. [41:16] Like they immediately went [41:18] into the partnership [41:19] and licensing category [41:20] and so they opted to work [41:22] with like some of the best [41:23] roasters in the world [41:25] specifically to put [41:26] really high-end coffee [41:28] into these tiny [41:29] like instantaneous capsules. [41:31] Yeah, Melissa, have you ever [41:32] had Comiteer coffee? [41:33] I have not, have you? [41:33] It's actually, it is pretty good. [41:35] It's very expensive. [41:36] Yes. [41:36] I forget the price, [41:37] but it is like it is [41:39] sort of painfully expensive [41:40] to think of even something [41:42] kind of like instant coffee. [41:44] But it is, I would say, [41:45] of these things that you can make [41:47] with almost no effort [41:48] and in one minute, [41:48] it's probably the best one [41:50] I've ever had. [41:50] I've not tried them all, [41:51] but it is head and shoulders [41:53] above Keurig for sure. [41:54] Okay. [41:54] But anyway, so I think this idea [41:56] of how do we do this better [41:57] has not died, right? [41:59] And Keurig even continues [42:00] to push on this. [42:01] They made promises about [42:04] becoming energy efficient [42:06] and recyclable [42:07] and doing all this stuff [42:08] and the deadline was 2020 [42:09] and they didn't meet that [42:10] and then they did meet that, [42:12] but then they were legally challenged [42:13] for whether they actually [42:14] met that. [42:14] So Keurig, I would say, [42:15] has made a lot of promises [42:17] which have come to varying levels [42:19] of truth. [42:20] And yet all the time, [42:22] this company just continues [42:23] to sell like crazy. [42:25] They sell tons of brewers. [42:27] They sell tons of K-cups. [42:29] The numbers continue to go up [42:31] about the percentages [42:32] of them in households. [42:33] I mean, they have just [42:35] absolutely conquered America [42:37] in particular as a coffee [42:38] drinking world. [42:40] And actually, this might be [42:41] a good moment to pause [42:42] because I think the fact [42:43] that it is a mostly American [42:45] thing is sort of interesting. [42:47] And I wonder if either [42:49] of you can maybe try [42:51] to explain what is unique [42:52] about American coffee culture [42:54] versus coffee culture elsewhere. [42:56] I think unlike Italy [42:59] or Austria or something like that, [43:01] our coffee culture [43:03] has not been rooted in excellence [43:05] and it has been something [43:07] that we... [43:09] I mean, think about things [43:10] like a chock full of nuts [43:12] or Folgers or whatever. [43:14] I mean, if you drink [43:15] a cup of that right now, [43:16] you'd be like, [43:16] oh my God, what is this? [43:20] And I feel like [43:20] that's what our grandparents [43:22] were drinking. [43:23] And so this... [43:24] Shout out to my father-in-law. [43:25] He's drinking it every day. [43:26] This might be in the same, [43:28] maybe slightly better category. [43:30] And so I feel like [43:31] Americans prize convenience [43:33] over the ritual [43:36] or culture of drinking coffee [43:38] and taking the time to do it [43:40] and connecting with somebody else [43:42] over a standing table in a cafe. [43:44] Yeah, I was going to say too [43:45] very similarly. [43:46] To me, I think the Keurig [43:48] is very emblematic [43:49] of just our coffee-drinking culture [43:52] in general, [43:52] where it's very much prioritized [43:55] by high caffeine, [43:57] a very capitalist, [43:59] productivity-driven society. [44:01] And so you want your coffee [44:02] to be very utilitarian. [44:04] You want it to be fast [44:06] and convenient. [44:06] And you're also taking it to go [44:08] most of the time. [44:09] The U.S. has a... [44:10] Especially when it comes [44:11] to coffee shops, [44:12] a really interesting culture [44:14] where it's a majority [44:15] of how people interact [44:16] with coffee shops, [44:17] especially in cities, [44:18] is in a to-go fashion [44:20] where they're getting [44:21] large cups of coffee [44:22] and taking it out [44:23] into the workday immediately. [44:24] Whereas a lot of European countries, [44:27] Italy, as you mentioned, [44:29] Melissa too, [44:30] their coffee culture [44:31] is so rooted in the routine [44:33] and the pause and moment [44:36] of having time with your coffee [44:38] rather than just viewing it [44:40] as a tool to like get you [44:42] to the next thing in your day. [44:44] Yeah, and I mean Keurig [44:46] in all of those things [44:47] makes perfect sense. [44:48] A thing I've been trying to figure out [44:49] is like, do we blame Keurig [44:51] for all of those things? [44:53] Or is it just a symptom [44:54] of all of those things, right? [44:55] I just think it harnessed it. [44:57] Yeah. [44:58] And Keurig makes us [44:59] look ourselves in the mirror. [45:03] Asking, what am I doing? [45:05] Keurig is America. [45:07] So and actually to that point, [45:09] that's actually a really funny way [45:10] to think about what happens to Keurig [45:11] over sort of the decade before now, [45:13] which is Keurig kind of gets [45:15] a bunch of weird ideas [45:16] that maybe the way that we do coffee [45:17] is the way we want to do everything. [45:19] So they make this machine [45:20] called the Keurig cold, [45:21] which is going to go [45:24] and make cold beverages. [45:25] You can make a Coca-Cola [45:27] with a Keurig, [45:28] which I would argue [45:29] just completely misunderstands [45:30] the thing that we're doing here. [45:32] This is a no. [45:33] That machine cost $370. [45:35] Oh no. [45:36] It was an enormous failure [45:37] and it went away in less than a year. [45:39] It was so bad that Keurig ends up [45:40] refunding everybody who had bought one. [45:42] Oh my God. [45:44] It was such a disaster. [45:45] But there was also, [45:46] there was a time when [45:47] you could make soup in a Keurig. [45:49] They had this thing about like, [45:50] okay, we have built a system [45:53] by which we can force water into stuff. [45:56] What can we force water into? [45:58] And that is not what Keurig is. [46:00] Keurig was a coffee machine [46:02] and I think they have [46:02] finally at long last begun to learn that. [46:05] There's also a bunch of weird [46:07] corporate shenanigans happening. [46:08] So Keurig gets bought by Green Mountain, [46:10] becomes Keurig Green Mountain, [46:11] which then becomes acquired [46:13] by a private equity firm [46:15] and merged with Dr. Pepper Snapple, [46:17] which forms the Keurig, [46:18] the company Keurig Dr. Pepper, [46:20] which is now at the, [46:21] at the kind of the moment [46:23] we record this [46:24] being split back into two. [46:25] So Keurig has gone through [46:26] this wild series of corporate mergers [46:28] and is now actually going to go [46:30] back out into being its own company. [46:31] And the company bought Pete's [46:32] and is now attempting to be [46:34] kind of a coffee conglomerate [46:36] under the Keurig name. [46:38] So Keurig may be due for [46:40] a very different run [46:41] in a different direction [46:42] of the coffee world, [46:43] but has been through an awful lot [46:45] and has just sold so much coffee [46:47] along the way. [46:48] Like this company, [46:49] for all the mess that it's had, [46:51] has continued to be a huge hit. [46:53] And Morgan, you kind of alluded [46:54] to this earlier, [46:55] but one of the interesting problems [46:56] that Keurig has had [46:57] is that their machines [46:58] actually last a really long time. [47:01] And in a K-cup world, [47:03] in a world where you're just trying [47:04] to sell a lot of K-cups, [47:05] this is largely good news, [47:06] but I think [47:07] the company is trying to do [47:10] more futuristic things [47:11] and do different things [47:12] and come up with more [47:13] environmental ways to do things. [47:14] And they've had to find ways [47:16] to be sort of incredibly [47:17] backwards compatible to like, [47:19] these things that we just put [47:20] in this brand new machine [47:20] that Travis our producer [47:22] bought an hour ago, [47:23] will work in the very first one [47:24] that they ever shipped. [47:25] Oh my god, really? [47:26] That's a big deal. [47:27] And this ends up being, [47:28] I think, a real problem for Keurig [47:29] because even if you want [47:30] to move forward, [47:32] you kind of can't [47:33] because if you stop [47:34] selling the K-cups [47:35] to all the people [47:35] who bought the old Keurigs, [47:37] you risk losing a customer entirely [47:39] and all of the money you're making [47:40] is from these K-cups. [47:41] So they've put themselves [47:42] in kind of an odd position. [47:44] And I bring this up [47:45] because the place I want to leave [47:47] this story before we get into [47:48] the version history questions [47:49] is with K-rounds. [47:50] Do you guys know about K-rounds? [47:52] No. [47:52] I don't know about K-rounds, no. [47:54] Yes! [47:54] Oh, this makes me so happy. [47:55] Okay. [47:57] So in 2024, [47:58] and remember Keurig a few times [48:00] has had big ideas [48:02] about how to do [48:03] more environmentally friendly things, [48:05] right? [48:05] Like they understand [48:06] that the environmental problems [48:08] are a drain on the brand. [48:10] They make people not want to buy [48:12] or use Keurig. [48:13] Even there's like, [48:14] we've been sort of talking [48:15] about this moral conflict [48:16] of being a Keurig drinker. [48:17] One of the real things is like, [48:18] I'm creating a tremendous amount [48:19] of waste every time I do it [48:21] and people feel that. [48:22] And so Keurig has been looking [48:23] for ways to solve this for forever. [48:24] They make a lot [48:25] of complicated environmental promises. [48:26] There are the reusable K-cups, [48:29] which I think it sounds like [48:30] you've used Melissa. [48:31] And they're like, [48:32] that's a solution [48:33] and a problem all at the same time. [48:35] They're pretty terrible. [48:36] Yeah, and it's like by the time [48:37] I'm grinding my own coffee [48:38] and putting it in, [48:39] what am I doing here? [48:40] Yeah, that's exactly it. [48:42] I'm like mashing in [48:43] this little thing [48:44] and it's like, what is this? [48:45] Yeah, but so in 2024, [48:48] Keurig comes out [48:50] with this huge announcement [48:52] and is essentially like, [48:52] we've fixed it. [48:53] We have come up with the new thing [48:56] and it's called K-rounds. [48:57] And I'm just gonna, [48:58] I'm gonna play you [48:59] one small part of what amounts [49:01] to like a six minute long [49:02] infomercial for K-rounds. [49:04] Okay. [49:04] Here it is. [49:05] We were developing the K-rounds. [49:07] We went back to basics, [49:08] went and watched how barista [49:10] would make the finest coffee. [49:13] Baristas tamp down the coffee [49:15] before they pull an espresso shot. [49:17] And we thought, [49:18] what if we took that [49:18] a little bit further [49:19] and actually compacted the coffee [49:21] enough to have it [49:22] hold itself together? [49:24] Thought we don't need [49:25] that plastic cup anymore. [49:27] That plastic cup limited [49:28] how much coffee [49:29] you could pack into it. [49:30] The amount of pressures [49:31] that the vessel could withstand [49:33] when brewing, [49:34] breaking free of that constraint, [49:36] it gives us a lot of opportunity [49:37] to build better [49:38] and different brewing technology. [49:40] The K-rounds are going to be available [49:42] in an espresso shot size, [49:44] a double shot size, [49:45] a traditional coffee size, [49:46] and even a slightly larger pod [49:48] for a tall, refreshing, cold coffee. [49:50] So that's K-rounds. [49:51] K-rounds are, [49:52] they look like basically [49:54] a little round brownie of coffee. [49:58] But what it is, [49:58] is incredibly condensed coffee grounds [50:00] that are designed to not, [50:02] like they said, [50:03] not need a container, [50:04] not need a shape, [50:04] you can just take it out [50:05] and put it in. [50:06] Morgan, you're a barista. [50:07] They said, [50:08] they said this is baristas. [50:10] Hit me with your reactions. [50:10] What do you think? [50:11] I was fascinated by that. [50:14] I was very curious [50:15] when they were talking about the type, [50:16] but it sounds like that, [50:18] like those are made, [50:19] at least some of them [50:20] for espresso style beverages [50:22] if I was understanding [50:23] that correctly, [50:24] which is kind of interesting [50:25] because that's like, [50:26] very much not what Keurig [50:28] has historically done [50:29] that's been like [50:29] Nespresso's territory. [50:31] One of the major concerns [50:32] that I automatically have off the bat [50:34] is like coffee freshness. [50:36] The minute coffee starts to oxidize [50:39] the minute you have it [50:40] like stored open air, [50:42] like you're losing flavor quality [50:44] and also like brewing potential [50:45] super, super quickly. [50:47] So as fun as that was, [50:49] I have so many, [50:49] I have so many questions [50:50] I must ask, [50:52] but I think they're, [50:53] I think they're adorable. [50:55] I mean, it does like if you, [50:57] on the very surface of it, [51:00] the idea seems like [51:00] it sort of makes sense, right? [51:02] It appeals to me in a way. [51:03] It took so long, kind of, you know? [51:04] Yes. [51:06] Yeah. [51:06] So Keurig showed these off in 2024 [51:09] and this is a big deal [51:10] and this was part of [51:11] a new system called Alta [51:13] that Keurig was coming out with [51:15] and this is going to be [51:15] the most all-in-one thing [51:18] Keurig has ever shipped. [51:19] This is sort of the, [51:20] like the ultimate Keurig [51:22] and this is also importantly [51:25] not backwards compatible. [51:26] Like this is a, [51:26] this is a break [51:27] in the Keurig system. [51:28] This thing has not shipped. [51:29] It's been two years. [51:30] There was just an update [51:31] very recently from Keurig [51:33] that said it is estimated [51:35] to be shipping this fall, 2026. [51:38] I would say most Keurig [51:39] watchers are deeply skeptical of that. [51:42] Keurig is saying [51:42] they're beta testing this, [51:44] which is a very funny way [51:44] to think about what you would do [51:46] with a new way of making coffee. [51:49] But it's out there. [51:50] This is, this is apparently [51:52] the big plan. [51:53] Is this the thing? [51:54] Like to phase this out? [51:55] If not phase it out, [51:56] at least like really move [51:59] every new Keurig buyer to K rounds. [52:02] Like Keurig wants you to see this [52:04] as not only Keurig being a good [52:07] and better and new company, [52:09] but also this is now [52:10] the way that you do it. [52:11] This is kind of interesting to me [52:13] because this also isn't like [52:15] totally new technology [52:17] or method of making coffee. [52:18] I'm forgetting the name [52:20] of the brand right now, [52:21] but there is like [52:22] in market currently. [52:23] I believe they're a European brand [52:25] that makes what they call [52:26] like coffee balls [52:27] and it's that same principle [52:29] of like just a compacted coffee [52:31] ball that goes [52:32] into their proprietary machine [52:34] podless and then brews. [52:36] I've never seen coffee balls before. [52:38] This is awesome. [52:39] So amazing name. [52:40] So truly. [52:42] Yeah, and I do think we're at this [52:45] idea of experimenting again [52:47] with how do we make coffee [52:48] that is convenient and better. [52:50] Feels like it's starting to happen. [52:52] And I guess this is where, [52:53] you know, we talked at the beginning [52:54] about how this sort of third wave [52:56] coffee is coming. [52:58] I think Starbucks [52:59] in a lot of ways is like early [53:00] to identifying this idea that, [53:02] oh, what if a coffee shop [53:02] was a place you could go [53:03] and hang out on purpose [53:05] and really made a huge business [53:08] out of that [53:08] and then lost that thread a little bit [53:10] and is now trying to get it back, [53:11] it seems. [53:11] But you have this huge rise [53:13] in great coffee [53:14] in the United States [53:15] and this huge rise [53:16] in ultra convenient at home coffee. [53:19] And now it does feel like [53:20] there is this increasing idea [53:21] of like, what if we can bring [53:22] those two things [53:23] a little bit closer together [53:24] that like, I don't know, [53:25] I feel like I see more [53:27] and more people every day [53:28] being like the AeroPress is amazing. [53:30] And it's like people are willing [53:31] maybe now to do a little bit of work [53:33] in service of better coffee [53:34] or maybe pay a little more money [53:36] in service of just as easy [53:37] better coffee. [53:38] I don't know, Morgan, [53:39] you're the most steeped [53:40] in this world of all of us. [53:41] Is this gotta keep using [53:42] coffee puns by accident? [53:43] No, please, please. [53:44] I love it. [53:45] I'm eating it up. [53:46] This is awful. [53:48] Do you see those things [53:50] sort of running at each other right now? [53:51] I think so. [53:52] I think like we're seen definitely [53:55] especially in like my generation [53:57] which is like a pretty [53:58] young coffee drinker. [54:00] Like there's this push back towards [54:02] like maybe more analog, [54:04] like more tactile routine methods [54:07] of brewing coffee. [54:08] And I think that is just a little bit [54:10] part of like the natural cycle [54:12] of behavior. [54:12] It's like we go super heavy [54:14] into convenience [54:14] and there's always like [54:15] the reaction of that [54:16] and then the pendulum [54:17] just keeps swinging back and forth. [54:19] But I also think quite a bit [54:20] of it has to do with COVID as well. [54:24] Like there was during COVID [54:26] when you know you couldn't have [54:28] like excellent coffee [54:29] at the coffee shop anymore [54:30] because they were closed. [54:31] There was this giant swing [54:33] of manufacturers and companies [54:35] making really easy accessible ways [54:37] to make truly wonderful [54:40] delicious coffee at home [54:42] really easy in the same way [54:44] that Keurig did. [54:45] But now that coffee is just [54:47] so much more tasty and better [54:49] in like every single [54:51] like step of the supply chain. [54:53] And I think that was a lot of people's [54:56] and like my generation's introduction [54:57] to brewing coffee at home. [54:59] And so now when Keurig's [55:01] kind of coming in [55:02] with this new method, [55:04] it's like they're already [55:05] kind of written off [55:06] for being an old school method [55:08] of brewing. [55:09] But because there's been this [55:11] like giant shift that focuses [55:13] towards the home user, [55:14] again outside of the cafe, [55:16] it's like there's just so many [55:18] different options [55:19] that turns out they're not [55:21] too hard to use [55:22] and people are willing [55:22] to go that extra effort, [55:24] especially if it means [55:25] they get to have like [55:26] a really special moment [55:27] brewing their coffee. [55:28] Like there's kind of this reaction [55:29] of like maybe we don't want [55:31] the like go, go, go [55:32] super speed [55:33] like convenience focused coffee anymore. [55:36] Melissa, you were nodding to that. [55:37] What do you think? [55:38] I feel like the other thing [55:40] that's coming to pass now [55:42] is that everything [55:44] is becoming more expensive. [55:45] And so even though we're past COVID, [55:48] it feels like paying $7.16 [55:51] for a cup of regular coffee [55:52] is a lot of money to do every day. [55:54] And I think that we'll see [55:56] more people who will say, [55:57] yes, coffee is a need, [55:59] but a coffee shop is a luxury [56:02] or if not a luxury, [56:04] not a necessity. [56:05] And that we'll see people [56:08] going to home brewing again. [56:10] Yeah, that's interesting. [56:11] I think that's right. [56:12] Okay, that's a good place [56:13] to stop for this one. [56:14] Let's take a quick break [56:15] and then we're going to come back [56:16] and we're going to do [56:16] the version history questions [56:17] and we're going to decide [56:18] once and for all [56:18] if this thing's any good. [56:20] We'll be right back. [56:22] All right, we're back. [56:25] It's time for the version [56:26] history questions. [56:27] The eight questions [56:28] we ask about every product [56:29] to see if we can figure out [56:30] its true legacy. [56:31] The first one is the time matrix, [56:33] which is a very simple concept [56:35] that makes perfect sense [56:36] to everybody [56:36] and nobody ever has [56:37] any questions about it [56:39] that maps idea versus time. [56:41] Was this the right idea [56:42] at the right time, [56:42] the wrong idea [56:43] at the wrong time [56:44] or somewhere in between? [56:45] Melissa, I'm curious [56:46] for your thoughts on [56:47] where Keurig belongs [56:49] on this graph. [56:50] I say it belongs [56:51] in the center right [56:53] of right idea, [56:54] right time. [56:55] Like dead on, [56:56] right idea, right time? [56:58] Not like the peak, [56:59] but pretty close [57:01] because people are paying [57:03] more attention to coffee [57:04] as we said [57:05] and there's movement [57:06] in specialty coffee [57:08] and people are still at work [57:11] making bad coffee [57:12] and it feels like [57:13] it was like a maelstrom [57:16] of possibilities. [57:18] Yeah, Morgan, what do you think? [57:20] I tend to agree with that. [57:21] Like I think like execution [57:25] and like long, [57:26] like separating out [57:27] kind of this like environmental [57:30] like aspect of the K-cups [57:32] and all of that. [57:33] I think like the right time [57:36] for sure [57:36] and also right idea. [57:38] Like they were really ahead [57:39] of the curve [57:40] on like what like specifically [57:42] America needed [57:43] in terms of coffee makers. [57:45] Yeah, I'm torn on this one [57:46] because I think separating [57:49] out the environmental piece, [57:51] you're absolutely right. [57:52] It's hard to split the two. [57:54] Right, but I think the [57:55] environmental story here [57:56] is so important [57:57] and winds up being so important [57:59] in the history of this company [58:01] that I feel like I kind of want [58:02] to shove it further down [58:03] towards wrong idea [58:05] that it's like it got [58:06] it got a bunch of this really right [58:08] but it got one really important [58:10] piece kind of wrong. [58:11] Yes. [58:12] And like maybe destroyed [58:13] the planet as a result. [58:14] Yeah, that makes sense. [58:15] They made people make horror movies [58:17] about K-cups destroying the planet. [58:18] Yes. [58:19] I think it can't be anything other [58:21] than mostly right idea, right time [58:22] because it did. [58:23] I think if they hadn't done it [58:24] when they did it, [58:25] somebody would have figured out [58:26] something like this [58:27] a few years later. [58:27] Because again, this thing [58:28] where you look at your office [58:29] coffee pot and you're like, [58:30] this sucks. [58:30] I wonder if I can do better [58:32] surely occurred to other people [58:34] and surely would have occurred [58:34] to more of them after. [58:36] But yeah, I feel like they just [58:38] they whiffed on one part of it [58:40] that wound up being a great business [58:41] and a bad thing for the world. [58:43] It's like for them as a company, [58:45] it was right time, right idea. [58:47] For the rest of the world, [58:48] it was right time. [58:48] Maybe wrong idea. [58:50] Yes. [58:51] That is totally fair. [58:53] So I think where we have it now, [58:54] which is like a mostly right idea, [58:56] right time with like a gentle nudge [58:58] into wrong idea. [58:58] This feels right to me. [58:59] Are we good with this? [59:00] We're good. [59:00] That feels good. [59:01] Okay, cool. [59:02] Question number two. [59:03] Was this peak anything? [59:05] I have a couple to offer you [59:06] and then I'm curious [59:06] if you guys have ideas. [59:07] Was this peak office coffee? [59:09] Have we bested Keurig [59:10] when it comes to office coffee? [59:12] I kind of don't think so. [59:13] For the price point, [59:15] there's definitely better machines [59:16] that make better coffee [59:18] out there, but they've just built [59:20] the system so well [59:23] at the price point that they're at. [59:24] It's kind of hard to compete with that. [59:27] I also feel like it so correctly [59:29] matches how people exist in an office. [59:33] This is again where I go back [59:33] to the funny thing about Keurig [59:34] is I think it absolutely got [59:36] every single thing right [59:38] when it comes to your office coffee maker. [59:39] Where like I want coffee [59:40] when I want coffee. [59:41] I don't want to go get coffee [59:42] just because somebody made it [59:43] and if I don't get it right now, [59:44] it'll be gross and burned. [59:46] I am now fully in control of this thing [59:48] and I can make exactly [59:49] as much as I need and no more. [59:50] That sort of cadence [59:51] of how people make coffee [59:52] feels like they got it exactly right. [59:54] I also feel like [59:55] this is like the far end [59:57] of the dot com boom [59:58] where people had coffee [01:00:01] and drinks and ping pong tables [01:00:03] in their office. [01:00:04] This is like a really remote. [01:00:05] Well, we have this good coffee maker. [01:00:07] It's like an every person's amenity [01:00:11] on some level. [01:00:11] Totally. [01:00:12] And improving it. [01:00:13] Yeah. [01:00:13] There was definitely the startup boom [01:00:16] where everybody was bringing in [01:00:17] Stumptown cold brew concentrate. [01:00:19] But I don't know that that [01:00:20] I don't think we can count that next to. [01:00:22] No, no, this is just like [01:00:24] reading out of like [01:00:26] at least we have this. [01:00:28] Exactly. [01:00:29] This is better than like [01:00:30] the gross stuff [01:00:31] somebody made this morning. [01:00:32] Yes. [01:00:32] Also, is this peak easy coffee? [01:00:35] Yes. [01:00:35] Has there ever been an easier way [01:00:37] to make coffee than Keurig? [01:00:38] Instant. [01:00:40] Is that even coffee though? [01:00:41] I know. [01:00:43] I know. [01:00:44] It's just sort of retro or something. [01:00:46] Yeah. [01:00:46] I feel like instant like [01:00:49] not that one is like [01:00:50] actually worse or better than the other, [01:00:52] but like Keurig has this [01:00:55] like doing it in a machine that quickly [01:00:58] just like I feel like [01:00:59] psychologically feels so much better. [01:01:02] Yes. [01:01:02] Not for nothing Keurig [01:01:03] also heats up the water for you. [01:01:04] That's true. [01:01:05] That's true actually. [01:01:06] Great point. [01:01:07] And he has the time. [01:01:08] Exactly. [01:01:08] I got things to do. [01:01:12] Question number three. [01:01:13] If you could time travel back [01:01:14] and develop it yourself. [01:01:15] So we're putting you [01:01:16] in the Boston apartment [01:01:18] with John and Peter in the 80s and 90s. [01:01:21] Could you make the product more successful? [01:01:23] I mean, I would have wanted to have like [01:01:26] met design team designing it. [01:01:29] Like the design part is the part that [01:01:31] I feel like if you make it a coveted item [01:01:34] that it would [01:01:35] and that you could essentially rotate it like [01:01:37] this is a circa 2010 [01:01:40] and this is a circa 2020 [01:01:42] and it's like became like a collector's [01:01:44] design thing. [01:01:45] That's a good one. [01:01:46] Then that would have made it cool. [01:01:49] Yeah. [01:01:50] What is it? [01:01:51] Is it the mocha pot? [01:01:52] Is that a thing that has become [01:01:53] like a real design object [01:01:55] that you just have in your house [01:01:56] because it looks awesome? [01:01:57] Absolutely. [01:01:57] Like what if Keurig had pointed at [01:01:59] that a little bit? [01:02:00] I mean, and there's so many collabs [01:02:01] with designers and Bialetti [01:02:03] that you can get like a fancy one. [01:02:06] So absolutely. [01:02:06] I'm now imagining [01:02:07] like a supreme branded Keurig. [01:02:11] I might take that. [01:02:13] Keurig. [01:02:15] It would have worked. [01:02:16] Honestly, you're not wrong. [01:02:17] Exactly. [01:02:18] Morgan, what do you think? [01:02:19] I think, and I don't know [01:02:21] how they would have done this necessarily. [01:02:23] You know, it's thinking about like [01:02:25] the hot water, the pressure, [01:02:26] like achieving all of those things. [01:02:29] Plastic is the obvious [01:02:31] and like easy answer, [01:02:32] but it's like if there could have [01:02:34] been a way to incorporate [01:02:36] a more environmentally friendly [01:02:38] like pod product early on, [01:02:41] even utilizing like a pod system [01:02:44] early on that was like easier [01:02:46] to take apart and actually recycle [01:02:47] because it's like people got trained [01:02:49] on to just being able to toss them, [01:02:52] just being able to get rid of them [01:02:53] so early on that then when they [01:02:54] retroactively introduced recycling systems, [01:02:57] like easier ways to take them apart. [01:02:58] It's like, well, people aren't, [01:02:59] people already have their systems [01:03:01] and their ways of of actioning. [01:03:03] Like as much as you can, [01:03:04] you know, tell them [01:03:05] that they can do it differently. [01:03:06] It's like we don't, [01:03:07] we don't like to change, [01:03:08] especially in those those small routines. [01:03:10] I know I was thinking about this too, [01:03:12] because I think the obvious one for me [01:03:13] is go back and like grab John [01:03:15] by the lapels and be like, [01:03:16] this is an environmental disaster. [01:03:18] Do better. [01:03:19] But it also seems like [01:03:21] the last 15 years since [01:03:23] this has been very obvious [01:03:24] to everybody that it's [01:03:25] environmental problems [01:03:25] suggest that it's a much harder [01:03:27] problem to cleanly solve [01:03:30] than we realize. [01:03:30] Like for all the ways in which [01:03:32] it is just a ruthless corporation [01:03:33] trying to make money. [01:03:34] Keurig would have solved [01:03:35] this problem already [01:03:36] if there was an easy way to do so [01:03:37] because it just would have been [01:03:38] an unassailable victory [01:03:40] for them to do so. [01:03:41] And so that suggests [01:03:43] that there is not something [01:03:45] just sitting out there [01:03:46] that John could have picked up [01:03:47] off the shelf that he didn't. [01:03:48] And also there must be like [01:03:50] a financial demographic of like [01:03:52] this is the income range [01:03:53] of people who are making Keurigs. [01:03:55] And if we improve this product [01:03:58] so it was more recyclable, [01:03:59] then it would kick out x percent [01:04:01] of people who normally buy it. [01:04:02] Totally. [01:04:02] Yeah, they already had trouble [01:04:04] convincing people [01:04:04] that this was worth the cost [01:04:06] because it's I mean, [01:04:07] it was like three or four times [01:04:08] the price of just making [01:04:09] a cup of coffee [01:04:10] with Folgers beans [01:04:11] that you bought at the grocery store. [01:04:12] And so that was yeah, [01:04:15] I think if they had made it [01:04:16] any more expensive, [01:04:18] it might have changed [01:04:19] the way the thing worked at all [01:04:20] from the very beginning. [01:04:22] Yeah, it's a tricky one. [01:04:22] I do like the idea of [01:04:24] hire a designer. [01:04:29] Alright, question number four. [01:04:30] The question here is [01:04:31] will the youth ever make it cool again? [01:04:33] And I think this is a fun one [01:04:35] for this one. [01:04:36] Because Keurigs are so ubiquitous, [01:04:39] there is nothing about it at all [01:04:41] that is like a fun hipster [01:04:42] way to make coffee. [01:04:44] And Morgan, I say this [01:04:45] with all possible love, [01:04:46] you are a hipster [01:04:47] who likes to make coffee. [01:04:48] Oh, for sure. [01:04:49] And who makes hips or coffee. [01:04:51] Can we make Keurig cool again? [01:04:53] You know, it's hard. [01:04:54] I think my gut instinct is no. [01:04:57] And I think the way [01:04:58] that they could have possibly [01:05:00] come around and made Keurig cool [01:05:02] again is if they did have [01:05:04] that kind of history [01:05:05] of heritage design [01:05:06] that Melissa was just mentioning, [01:05:08] where it's like, you know, [01:05:10] people kind of come back around [01:05:11] to maybe an older model [01:05:13] of coffee system [01:05:14] that they grew up with [01:05:15] and has a retro feel [01:05:16] that's different [01:05:17] than what it looks like now. [01:05:18] But like the problem [01:05:19] is kind of right in front of us [01:05:21] like on screen [01:05:22] with the two Keurig coffee makers [01:05:23] where what they're selling today [01:05:25] looks functionally the exact same [01:05:27] as what they were selling originally. [01:05:29] So you don't have that [01:05:30] kind of fun retro [01:05:31] like, you know, [01:05:34] sweeping back to like the 90s, [01:05:35] like there's none of that [01:05:37] like feel to it to come back to. [01:05:39] I was thinking about this too [01:05:40] because one of my sort of immediate [01:05:42] thoughts when I started [01:05:43] thinking about this question [01:05:43] is like, oh, update [01:05:45] and re-release the first one, [01:05:46] right? Like Keurig classic [01:05:48] or whatever. [01:05:48] And then I looked at it [01:05:49] and it's like nobody would [01:05:50] clock that as old-school Keurig [01:05:52] which just it looks like [01:05:53] every other Keurig ever made. [01:05:54] It's so funny. [01:05:55] And I think if you start doing, [01:05:57] you know, Taylor Swift [01:05:58] branded Keurig now, [01:06:00] everybody just rolls their eyes [01:06:01] at you and is like easy Keurig. [01:06:03] Yes, completely. [01:06:04] Not now. [01:06:04] Unless you go like [01:06:05] the Thomas's Thermos route, [01:06:07] you know, like the time [01:06:08] how people were collecting [01:06:09] those Thomas's cups [01:06:10] and found like accoutrements [01:06:12] that you're like connecting [01:06:14] like sleeves and things [01:06:15] you connect to it [01:06:16] and things that you collect [01:06:17] like maybe you could go that route. [01:06:18] Okay, now you're making me think [01:06:20] instead of doing the Keurig machine, [01:06:22] you make a Keurig mug [01:06:24] and then try to make it [01:06:24] super cool on TikTok [01:06:25] so that all the kids [01:06:26] want the Keurig mug. [01:06:27] Yes. [01:06:28] Hydro flask style. [01:06:30] Yes. [01:06:30] Exactly. [01:06:32] Exactly. [01:06:32] Yes. [01:06:33] All right. Well, we've solved it. [01:06:34] Keurig, you're welcome. [01:06:35] Question number five. [01:06:36] This is actually a totally bizarre one [01:06:39] for this because it hasn't changed a bit. [01:06:41] What feature of this product [01:06:43] should every current version have? [01:06:45] I would argue there is something to [01:06:48] there is literally only one button [01:06:50] that just says brew. [01:06:51] Like, even now it's like three buttons [01:06:56] but there is something lovely [01:06:57] about the fact that you put the pot [01:06:59] and you smack it on top [01:07:01] and it makes you coffee. [01:07:02] I mean, that's strong difference. [01:07:04] I just don't think it actually is real. [01:07:06] I think it's like a total panacea. [01:07:08] I do wonder. [01:07:09] Yeah, I think it's just like that one button. [01:07:12] Morgan, what do you think? [01:07:12] Anything to add? [01:07:13] They haven't changed much in 30 years. [01:07:15] It's so hard to... [01:07:16] I was going to say it's so hard to answer. [01:07:18] I mean, one button, yeah, [01:07:20] but it's like not much to pull from. [01:07:23] I still want it to be a more satisfying [01:07:25] button experience like a bell, [01:07:27] even though that would wake people up. [01:07:29] Or like a crank you pull [01:07:30] but it's like coffee time. [01:07:32] Yes, exactly. [01:07:34] And it should say coffee time as you pull it. [01:07:38] I take my answer back. [01:07:39] That's what I want actually. [01:07:41] We want the coffee time machine. [01:07:42] I do. [01:07:43] This is good. [01:07:44] We can do this. [01:07:44] I think the three of us [01:07:45] are starting a coffee company. [01:07:46] They're going to hire us. [01:07:47] This is going to be incredible. [01:07:48] Consultancy fees. [01:07:50] All right, three more questions. [01:07:51] These are the Version History Hall of Fame questions. [01:07:53] Any product has to pass all three of these tests [01:07:56] to get into the Hall of Fame. [01:07:57] Question number one. [01:07:58] Did this product do something truly new? [01:08:00] No. [01:08:01] No. [01:08:02] Interesting. [01:08:02] Tell me why. [01:08:03] I mean, it plays with the vessels [01:08:05] of how you're brewing coffee, [01:08:06] but it's still just brewing coffee. [01:08:09] You could make your pot of coffee [01:08:14] brew one cup of coffee [01:08:15] if you really wanted to. [01:08:18] That is true. [01:08:19] Put coffee in thing, pour water on thing. [01:08:21] Yes. [01:08:22] Is not a new solution to a problem. [01:08:26] Morgan, what do you think? [01:08:27] Do you want to give Keurig more credit than that? [01:08:29] I lean towards yes. [01:08:32] I agree that it is just making coffee, [01:08:35] but I think the speed at which it achieves filter coffee, [01:08:40] which is like a time frame [01:08:41] that usually was just for espresso [01:08:43] and filter coffee was automatically [01:08:45] like a couple minutes minimum [01:08:47] to getting it down to like sub one minute functionally. [01:08:50] Like I feel like that was kind of like new and innovative. [01:08:54] Well, as a person who's recently brewed from Keurig, [01:09:00] there are some models [01:09:01] where it takes a minute for it to heat up. [01:09:03] True. [01:09:03] So it actually ends up taking the same amount of time [01:09:06] as a regular pot. [01:09:08] That is true. [01:09:09] If you're starting with the water too, [01:09:10] then you have to go fill up the water thing. [01:09:12] And it's like, this takes like three minutes. [01:09:14] I got to go. [01:09:16] I got stuff to do. [01:09:18] I can order Starbucks so much faster than that. [01:09:21] All right. [01:09:22] I'm going to tie break this with, [01:09:23] I'm going to say yes, [01:09:24] just because I wanted to pass this test [01:09:26] so we can keep the tension going. [01:09:27] Okay. [01:09:27] For the other version. [01:09:28] I call it valid. [01:09:29] But I take both of your arguments. [01:09:31] In good faith. [01:09:32] Question number two, [01:09:33] was the Keurig either remarkably good or remarkably bad? [01:09:36] I will spoil it. [01:09:37] I think this is where it fails the test [01:09:38] because I don't think it was either. [01:09:40] I don't think it tried to be either. [01:09:42] Do you know what I mean? [01:09:42] Like, I don't think being remarkably good [01:09:44] was actually Keurig's goal [01:09:46] in a way that makes me find this product so fascinating. [01:09:48] It's like, they started from a pure simplification convenience. [01:09:54] How do we strip away all of the ways [01:09:56] in which you can screw this up? [01:09:57] I never found anything where the goal is like, [01:10:00] let's make terrific coffee. [01:10:02] And I think that's fine. [01:10:03] It just wasn't the goal. [01:10:05] It's like, how do we make non-horrible coffee [01:10:08] was the goal. [01:10:08] Yes. [01:10:09] And it ends up, you put Keurig kind of right in the middle [01:10:12] of every single coffee spectrum you could think of. [01:10:14] I agree with that take. [01:10:16] I think it makes remarkably passable coffee, [01:10:18] which is what it set out to do. [01:10:20] But even if they did an excellent job [01:10:23] at achieving their goal, [01:10:24] their goal itself wasn't excellent. [01:10:26] So it's very hard for me to say it was remarkably good. [01:10:29] I also, they made something that was packaged in a way [01:10:35] that was really cool and worked really well for people. [01:10:38] And so it's hard for me to say it was remarkably bad. [01:10:42] I think where it slips into the bad territory [01:10:44] is when we get back into that discussion [01:10:45] about the environmental aspects. [01:10:47] That's the really bad part to me. [01:10:49] But everything else about it, it's pretty good. [01:10:52] I think what you're touching on is essentially [01:10:54] the hallmark of fast food, which is good enough. [01:10:59] Exactly, yeah. [01:11:00] Yeah, to me, I was thinking about this [01:11:02] as we were drinking the coffee. [01:11:03] I feel like no one has ever had a cup of Keurig coffee [01:11:06] and been like, gosh, that's better than I expected. [01:11:08] That's totally true. [01:11:11] And that's fine. [01:11:12] Again, that's not the goal. [01:11:14] I think most people have not had a cup of Keurig coffee [01:11:17] and been like, well, that's trash, which was the goal. [01:11:20] And I think that fails this test, [01:11:23] but is also sort of a success story of Keurig. [01:11:25] Whereas to go back to Comiteer, [01:11:27] I actually have this distinct memory [01:11:28] of the first time I had a cup of Comiteer coffee, [01:11:30] and I had the moment of being like, [01:11:31] well, that's better than I thought it was going to be. [01:11:33] And it was like an honest to God, [01:11:35] pretty good cup of coffee [01:11:36] out of a little round frozen thing in my freezer. [01:11:41] I have never had that feeling with a Keurig cup of coffee. [01:11:43] Absolutely. [01:11:43] It is a purely utilitarian experience, [01:11:46] and that's fine, but it fails this test. [01:11:49] Which is fun because I think it's going to pass this one, [01:11:52] which is Hall of Fame question number three, [01:11:54] did it change history? [01:11:55] Is there a world before Keurig and a world after it? [01:11:57] Yeah, I absolutely think so. [01:11:59] I mean, just if you're saying that one in three households [01:12:02] in America have this, [01:12:03] I mean, it's like a vacuum cleaner, [01:12:07] or I mean, any kind of gadget that you have in your house. [01:12:11] It's wild that so many people have it. [01:12:13] And it also speaks to what we talked about earlier, [01:12:16] is that people have multiple... [01:12:18] I mean, it makes sense for Morgan to have multiple [01:12:20] like coffee brewing items, [01:12:22] but it's really interesting at what point [01:12:24] we started collecting ways to brew coffee in our house. [01:12:28] Yeah, I agree. Morgan, what do you think? [01:12:29] Absolutely. I think like in a lot of ways, [01:12:33] Keurig has kind of gone the Xerox route, [01:12:35] or just even the brand name has become so synonymous [01:12:38] with like pod coffee makers. [01:12:40] Like you might have an off-brand or whatever, [01:12:42] but you're going to probably still call it a Keurig [01:12:44] or refer to it as such. [01:12:46] Totally. It is, I think, [01:12:47] even people who have Nespresso machines, they're Keurigs. [01:12:50] Yeah, yes. [01:12:51] I'm sure Nespresso hates that, but here we are. [01:12:53] I think that's right. Yeah. [01:12:54] And I was thinking about this as we were talking, [01:12:56] like, is there... [01:12:58] This has to be on the level of like an oven and a stove, [01:13:03] as when you walk into somebody's kitchen, [01:13:04] you immediately understand what those things are. [01:13:06] Like it is that ubiquitous, [01:13:09] particularly in American culture, [01:13:10] that I suspect the sort of brand recognition [01:13:13] has got to be close to a hundred percent. [01:13:15] So like you know what the thing is when you see it. [01:13:17] Absolutely. [01:13:17] Which is a remarkable achievement. [01:13:20] Again, for better and for worse, as it turns out. [01:13:23] All right, Keurig, you missed out on being in the Hall of Fame, [01:13:25] but only by a little. [01:13:26] And you've made me very sweaty, [01:13:28] which is why you didn't do it again. [01:13:28] I know. I also feel like I should walk my no back. [01:13:32] No, I hold strong on that. [01:13:34] Hold strong on that. [01:13:35] Yeah, hold fast. [01:13:36] I think you were right. [01:13:37] Okay. [01:13:37] I think not getting in, but only missing by a little [01:13:41] is the right choice. [01:13:42] Okay. [01:13:42] Totally passable, which feels on brand for this. [01:13:46] Okay. It did fine. [01:13:48] It did fine. [01:13:48] If there's ever a wing of the Virgin History Hall of Fame [01:13:51] that is like pretty good, it makes it in with flying colors. [01:13:55] The Good Enough Hall of Fame. [01:13:56] Yes, exactly. [01:13:57] Will be branded Keurig. [01:14:00] All right. [01:14:01] We are done here. [01:14:02] Thank you, Morgan and Melissa. [01:14:03] This has been tremendously fun. [01:14:04] Thank you both for doing this. [01:14:05] It's been so great. [01:14:06] It's been a blast. [01:14:07] You can follow all of Melissa's stuff at Eater. [01:14:09] You can follow all of Morgan's stuff. [01:14:11] Morgan drinks coffee. [01:14:12] Every platform everywhere. [01:14:13] Everywhere, right? [01:14:15] You're also training for a barista championships. [01:14:17] Yes. [01:14:17] I am. [01:14:18] The 2026 championships are happening in June. [01:14:22] So this is either for me, it's before, but maybe for you, it'll be after. [01:14:26] Best of luck. [01:14:26] We're very much looking forward to it. [01:14:28] We're rooting for you. [01:14:28] Exactly. [01:14:29] Cheering squad over here. [01:14:30] We will be there. [01:14:32] Thank you all for watching and listening. [01:14:33] And as always, the best thing you can do to support all of this, [01:14:36] to make sure we get to keep buying old weird gadgets on eBay [01:14:39] is to subscribe to The Verge, TheVerge.com slash subscribe. [01:14:42] Thank you for watching and listening. [01:14:44] We'll see you next time.