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How The Clapper became a viral sensation

Channel: Version History · Duration: 70:50 · source

[00:00] There's maybe nothing worse than when you sit down on the couch or you get into bed [00:04] and you discover that there's a light on. [00:06] And then you have to get up and trudge across the room or across the house just to turn it off. [00:11] Well, what if there was a better way? [00:13] If instead of having to get up and turn off the light, all you had to do was clap twice. [00:18] From The Verge and Vox Media, this is Virgin History, [00:21] a show about the best and worst and strangest and most important products in tech history. [00:26] I'm David Pierce, and today it's time for the story of The Clapper. [00:40] All right, we're back. It's time for The Clapper. [00:44] Yes. Joining me in studio, The Verge's V song. [00:47] Hello. [00:48] You are our senior reviewer. You do wearables, [00:51] but I feel like you're also our unofficial correspondent for cursed objects. [00:54] Yes, I believe my new title is senior cursed tech dystopian reviewer. So, yeah. [01:01] This is what we're here for. This is The Clapper. [01:03] Also joining us remotely, Alison Marsh, historian of technology [01:06] and the past forward columnist for IEEE Spectrum. Alison, welcome. [01:09] It's great to be here. [01:10] Thank you so much for coming. What is your home automation history like? [01:15] Are you a person who would have used The Clapper at any point in history here? [01:19] The Clapper came out when I was a kid, and I loved the idea. [01:23] I absolutely wanted one. Begged my parents. No deal. Nothing. Never got one. [01:29] And, you know, that streak has pretty much kept. [01:32] I have zero home automation at my house right now. [01:35] Nothing? [01:35] Nothing. Nothing. [01:37] So if you just clap in your house, nothing interesting or cool will happen at all. [01:40] Absolutely nothing at all happens if I clap in my house. [01:45] That's so sad, Alison. [01:47] Also here with us is A Clapper. This is not the first clapper. [01:51] It's one of the ones that came later that actually got much better, [01:54] as we will get to the first one, by and large. Not great. [01:58] But this one actually seems to largely respond. [02:00] So let's see if we clap it off. There we go. [02:04] This clapper is just a big square box. [02:07] It is the most beige box of all beige boxes. [02:10] You can plug two things into it. [02:11] We have a lamp plugged into it, and I am confident that lamp will come on and off [02:16] dozens of times in the course of this episode. [02:18] I'm very excited about it. [02:20] So the story of this thing is kind of long. [02:21] So we're just going to barrel through this because it's a weird history, [02:25] and I'm very excited to talk about all of it. [02:27] But first, Alison, I'm hoping you can help me set the scene a little bit here, [02:31] because this is the early 1980s. [02:34] And this is, I would say, this is the very beginning of the computer age. [02:38] There are computers that are starting to exist. [02:40] But this is not really yet the sort of computer era. [02:44] But what this does seem to be is everybody is bringing wacky, [02:48] new kinds of devices into their house to help them do house things. [02:52] What is going on at this moment in time in America? [02:55] Yeah, I mean, it's a time of hope. [02:58] But it's also a time of sort of the Cold War is winding down. [03:03] And we're coming out on top of that one. [03:05] So it has a lot of enthusiasm, positive. [03:10] And you're like, what can technology do for us? [03:13] And pretty much everything is, the world is limitless. [03:17] And we're like, OK, how are we going to harness that and make our lives better? [03:22] So I mean, don't forget, this is also when we get the microwave oven. [03:25] So it's all great. [03:27] Yeah, that's actually it's a perfect example, right? [03:29] And I think I was looking at this and there is this weird running thread at this time [03:34] of how can we make every single thing somewhat more convenient, right? [03:38] Like the microwave oven is probably the best example. [03:39] But this is also the time the answering machine is really starting to take off. [03:43] There is just this sense that maybe technology can solve all of our problems. [03:47] And so we are going to over-technology every single thing we possibly can. [03:52] Wow. [03:52] Which makes this my absolute favorite era of American history. [03:56] And the Clapper story actually starts in Canada in the early 1980s with two people, [04:03] Peter Lilyquist of Canada and Ku Chen of Taiwan. [04:06] They had this idea that they wanted a simpler way to manage a home automation system. [04:11] They were just like, we want a way to automate some of the things in our house very easily. [04:16] I think the idea of I would like to not stand up to go turn off that light [04:20] is like an idea that has existed as long as lights have existed. [04:23] Have that every night. [04:24] Yeah. [04:24] Because the bedroom lights in my house are, the bed is here and then the light is all [04:30] the way across the room. [04:31] And sometimes you're just like, nah, I'm just going to fall asleep with the light on. [04:35] Or I do because I'm very lazy. [04:38] And the funny thing is, is that I have smart lights. [04:40] So I could just ask my smart assistant to turn the lights off for me. [04:44] But it's dubious because my house is very vertical. [04:47] And so the Wi-Fi doesn't always work, even though I have a Wi-Fi mesh extender. [04:52] So they're onto something, home automation and not wanting to turn off the light. [04:56] It's a problem that still exists. [04:58] Very much so. [04:59] And I remember I used to sleep with a golf club under my bed, [05:03] which was theoretically like my security system. [05:05] But also because it was the perfect length I could reach over and just kind of whack [05:08] the light bulb off at night. [05:10] That's great. [05:10] Fabulous. [05:11] Can't recommend it enough. [05:13] But anyway, so these people run with this very obvious idea of what if I didn't have [05:16] to get up to turn the lights off. [05:18] And they invent a thing that is going to let them clap to do so. [05:23] And they bring a prototype to this guy named Joseph P. Dot. [05:26] Joseph P. Dot ends up being the sort of central figure to this story and is a really [05:30] fascinating guy who is not an inventor, but a product guy. [05:35] He's a marketing guy. [05:36] He is a person who is able to get the word out. [05:39] He makes a lot of really exciting stuff. [05:41] He's the ad man. [05:42] He totally has it. [05:43] Yes. [05:43] And he's very good at this. [05:45] And his claim to fame at the time, this was right around the time he's also [05:49] starting to work on another project called the Chia Pet. [05:52] Oh my God, he's Don Draper. [05:54] Truly. [05:54] Chia Pet, like one of the all-time great Allison marketing success stories, right? [06:01] I mean, I got one. [06:02] So yes, obviously brainwash all of America. [06:05] Yeah. [06:06] So to some extent, this whole story is going to be about taglines. [06:09] So let me just very quickly play you a Chia Pet commercial, [06:12] because it's important to me that this is stuck in your head for the rest of your day today. [06:16] There's a new pet. [06:19] Chia Pet, the pottery that grows. [06:21] It's fun, easy, and educational. [06:23] Just soak your Chia overnight. [06:26] Then spread the seeds like this. [06:28] Chia pets and trees, the pottery that grows. [06:35] Made the fact that we all know that, right? [06:38] Yeah. [06:38] So that ends up being, this is like becomes an iconic marketing campaign. [06:43] There was a really great Joseph P. Dot did an interview, I think with Adage, [06:46] many, many years later, and they were like, why do you think Chia was so successful? [06:50] And he was like, we just kept doing it. [06:53] We basically just beat it into people's brains [06:56] and it's stuck and it works and repetition is everything. [07:00] And I think that's exactly right. [07:02] So anyway, so Joseph P. Dot is this marketing guy. [07:06] He has a sense of how to make products. [07:07] He's building this big company. [07:09] It's called Joseph Enterprises. [07:11] And they meet with him and they pitch him on the thing that they're working on. [07:15] Their name for this thing at the time, it was not the clapper. [07:19] V, would you like to guess what the name for this thing was? [07:21] You're never going to guess it correctly. [07:24] I'll tell you, it was called the Great American Turn On. [07:26] No, absolutely not. [07:29] This did not go through focus testing. [07:32] So very Canadian, right? [07:35] This is the Great American Turn On, the original name for this product. [07:39] Nope. [07:40] Go Canada. [07:41] It's just, it's fabulous. [07:43] So anyway, Joseph P. Dot, despite the name, the Great American Turn On, is super into this. [07:48] He helps the two get a patent in the US. [07:52] He spins up manufacturing. [07:54] They're often running. [07:55] This is going to be a whole thing. [07:56] He's going to market it. [07:57] This is part of Joseph Enterprises now. [07:59] They start selling the product, when they start selling the product, [08:03] at a drugstore in Washington, D.C., just sort of as a test. [08:06] They're like, we're just going to get this in front of some people, see if they like it. [08:09] Again, this sales pitch for this is very straightforward, right? [08:12] You can turn off your lights without having to get up to turn off your lights. [08:14] Sold. Absolutely sold. [08:16] People are in. [08:17] But they make an important mistake at the very beginning, [08:19] which is that they forget to save lights. [08:22] So they start turning on everything. [08:24] They pitch this as plug anything into this, and you can turn it on just by clapping. [08:28] People start plugging in their televisions, and they start plugging in their televisions [08:32] to this faulty thing that might actually be triggered [08:35] by the noise that your television makes when it turns on. [08:38] So this thing starts immediately shorting out people's televisions. [08:42] And the thing is, like, finicky and doesn't work. [08:45] And spoiler alert, it stays that way for a long time. [08:47] But it is breaking the devices that are plugged in. [08:50] Total disaster. [08:51] Yeah. [08:52] So this thing, like, fundamentally just does not work. [08:55] People like it, people buy it, people are excited about it. [08:57] It's terrible. [08:58] Terrible product. [08:59] And so, OK, Alison, here is a bit of research that you and I have both done. [09:02] And I'm curious to know how far you were able to get in writing about the clapper. [09:06] Joseph P. Dot ends up in a lawsuit with the inventors of this product, [09:12] who he alleges are essentially trying to scam him and everyone out of money [09:17] with a failed product that is never going to work. [09:20] Um, what were you able to learn about this legal fight? [09:24] I mean, not much. [09:26] We were talking before and, you know, we, the end result is, you know, [09:32] the original team goes bankrupt. [09:34] And, you know, it ends up with Joe being able to sort of grab all the rights [09:39] and taking it and running with it. [09:41] And I think that's the outcome he was looking for. [09:45] You know, but the problem is that we don't really have a lot of documentation. [09:49] You know, I'm a historian and I want to go down this rabbit hole. [09:52] And the problem is, this is like right before, you know, the Internet and digitization [09:58] and keeping everything all your records and everything is there forever and ever. [10:02] And so I just don't have a lot to go on. [10:06] And trust me, I tried. [10:07] I really was looking hard and didn't get much. [10:11] OK, good. [10:11] I didn't get much further than you did. [10:12] The only thing there's this great Smithsonian oral history that Joseph P. [10:17] did, the way I understand it is that these two inventors, [10:22] at least the allegation was, decided to con this guy, Joseph P., out of some money. [10:28] And they took the money. [10:30] They spent a quarter of the money just on themselves. [10:33] They spent another quarter of it building a product they didn't think was ever going to work. [10:36] They were like, this is maybe a totally implausible, impossible idea. [10:42] And then we're just going to, I guess, run away with the rest of it. [10:44] But they end up running out of money at the end of this. [10:46] And Alison, like you said, Joseph P. ends up getting the product for himself. [10:50] So this now becomes his product. [10:52] And he can start to work on themselves. [10:53] This is a lot of effort for something that did not work out well for them. [10:58] Yes. [10:58] But this is the thing I think is so fun about this. [11:00] This idea just won't quit, right? [11:03] There is this thing. [11:04] This product doesn't work. [11:05] It's a weird legal battle that you're in. [11:08] But the idea of what if I could just clap to turn my lights off [11:11] is so tantalizing to everybody. [11:13] I mean, it's still just a brilliant idea. [11:16] But I just want to jump in. [11:18] And I love that oral history. [11:20] I also read the transcript. [11:22] The problem with that oral history is that it is only one side of the conversation, right? [11:27] We have no idea what the other folks thought. [11:31] And that's the problem. [11:32] And so Joe got to actually tell his story. [11:35] He sits down with the Smithsonian and gives his oral history. [11:37] And he's like, yeah, these people were scamming me. [11:40] And there's nothing we could do to be like, I don't know. [11:43] Was he scamming them? [11:44] Or was I driving them into bankruptcy? [11:47] We don't have both sides of the story. [11:49] That's very true. [11:50] Yeah, he does end up winning. [11:52] Yes. [11:53] Whatever that looks like. [11:54] But I suspect this is part of the reason [11:56] I spent so much time in vain trying to figure this out. [11:58] Because I do suspect there is more drama inside of that. [12:02] I think there's a little bit more. [12:04] Yeah. [12:04] I mean, the drama of the clapper, it just goes so deep. [12:07] This is what I'm saying. [12:08] The lore of the clapper is so much weirder than anybody realized. [12:12] First phrase. [12:13] But again, there is just this thing. [12:15] And Joseph P. Dot, again, the guy who made Chia Pet famous. [12:18] They sold 25 million Chia Pets. [12:20] If he can do that, we have to trust this man's taste. [12:23] He does hire engineers. [12:26] The first thing you have to do is hire some engineers. [12:28] That's right. [12:29] He hires this guy, Carlisle Stevens, [12:31] who is an inventor, to come and make a better one. [12:35] And Carlisle Stevens, as best I can tell, [12:37] is the first person to call the clapper as a derogatory term [12:42] for which he deserves an enormous amount of credit. [12:44] Kudos to Carlisle Stevens. [12:46] But he sets out to build a better one. [12:48] They end up getting a patent for a better one, [12:51] basically trying to figure out, [12:52] how do we make this idea actually work [12:54] without destroying appliances or being finicky? [12:58] I would say he solved some of those problems, [12:59] but not all of those problems. [13:02] Yeah, right? [13:03] This is not... [13:04] Yeah. [13:04] The clapper they end up shipping is far from a perfect device. [13:07] But at least it seems to mostly stop shorting people's television. [13:09] Yeah, I mean, it's best to not blow up your appliances. [13:13] Good thing in a product that you're buying at the drugstore. [13:16] Yeah, exactly. [13:17] Also, a fun quasi-related Carlisle Stevens fact, [13:21] he ends up patenting the idea [13:22] that you could turn a light on and off [13:24] by touching the base of the lamp. [13:26] Oh. [13:26] Extremely good idea by Carlisle Stevens. [13:28] I had one of those lamps. [13:29] It was like my favorite thing. [13:30] This is what I'm saying. [13:31] Guy knows how to turn lights on and off. [13:33] This is what he's doing. [13:33] Damn. [13:34] So, okay. [13:34] So then they get to work. [13:37] The clapper patent, by the way, [13:39] actually, I should just say, is a delight. [13:41] It's fun to read. [13:42] Yeah, Alison, I'm sure you read this too. [13:44] But they have to sort of explain the problem they're trying to solve. [13:48] The beginning is always very technical. [13:50] Here is the thing that this describes. [13:52] But then they have to sort of write the story of the problem. [13:55] And I just want to read you a couple of really delightful excerpts. [13:58] I love an exciting patent because most of them are not. [14:01] No. [14:02] Many people will elect not to use an electrical appliance, [14:05] such as a television or light, [14:06] if they must walk across a room to turn the television or light on. [14:09] Thus, manufacturers have developed devices that remotely control [14:12] and operate almost all electronic appliances. [14:16] People is lazy, is basically the outcome of this patent. [14:20] You're not wrong. [14:21] And also, Alison, to these sort of cultural- [14:24] Are you going to read the next sentence from that? [14:26] Oh yeah. [14:26] Like, do you have- [14:27] Unfortunately. [14:28] Because people are also lazy and really bad with keeping up with remote controls. [14:34] Yes. [14:34] This is great. [14:35] So the very next sentence. [14:36] Unfortunately, most remotely controlled appliances [14:38] require a person to possess some remote control unit to operate the appliance. [14:44] People love remote controls. [14:45] People also lose remote controls. [14:47] It's the thesis behind the clapper. [14:49] Constantly. [14:49] I have air tags in my remote controls, and I still can't find them. [14:53] Yep. [14:53] Problem is old as time. [14:56] All right. [14:56] Wait, sorry. [14:56] I have one more bit of this patent I want to read to you. [14:58] This is, again, the next sentence. [15:00] This whole thing is just a brutal own of the American public. [15:04] It says, the requirement of possession in itself can be a major inconvenience. [15:08] Often a person must walk across a room to retrieve the remote control unit, [15:11] and frequently it may be misplaced, which at best requires extra time and effort to find. [15:17] I mean, have you seen some American houses? [15:18] The rooms are big. [15:20] They're real big. [15:21] Walking across the room can be like trekking to Mordor. [15:26] It's a struggle. [15:27] Yeah. [15:27] And so this, again, this idea resonates. [15:32] Really, you can feel as bad about the fact that this is how people are as you want to, [15:37] but this is how people are. [15:39] Just the very beginning of the idea where people are like, [15:42] I want to watch television, but I have to get up and walk across the room to turn on the TV. [15:45] Maybe I just won't. [15:48] It's real. [15:48] It's a real thing. [15:49] I think this is an experience people have now. [15:51] And the remote control is not that old at that time. [15:54] Remote controls are still new, and they've already realized [15:57] that this is the major flaw in a remote control. [16:00] You lose it. [16:01] Yeah, exactly. [16:02] And this is like the first time that people are having these kinds of wireless devices [16:08] kind of all around their house in a bunch of different ways. [16:10] And it turns out they solve some problems and cause a bunch of other ones. [16:13] So anyway, this is the world into which the clapper is coming. [16:16] And again, this idea just will not quit. [16:19] There is something so exciting about this very basic convenience [16:25] that just makes people want to get into it. [16:28] But because this is Joseph P. Dot, fundamentally, the thing that happens here is a marketing story. [16:36] And this is where I think there is an argument to be made. [16:40] Joseph P. Dot does an even better commercial jingle than the Chia Pat. [16:45] Like, this is just a debate that we can have about which is a better commercial. [16:49] But let me just play you. [16:50] This is one of the early clapper commercials, and you just need to see it. [16:54] And when I say early clapper commercials, they're all the same. [16:57] So this just becomes the way clapper commercials work. [16:59] Because again, Joseph P. Dot's thing is sheer repetition. [17:02] I am going to burn this into your brain, and you will never forget it. [17:06] Otherwise known as brainwashing. [17:08] That's exactly right. [17:09] For two generations of kids, they never, ever, ever did forget it. [17:12] Here it is. [17:13] Clap on, clap off, clap on, clap off, clap off. [17:20] Let you turn things on or off from anywhere in the room. [17:23] Just plug in the clapper and the television, lamp, stereo, [17:27] almost anything you want to clap on and off. [17:30] Clap on, clap off, clap on, clap off. [17:35] The clapper. [17:37] The clapper is available adventure in participating Ace True Value and Service Star Hardware. [17:42] Okay, I'm still going to give it to the Chia for the actual jingle. [17:47] But the grandma just rolling over and clapping has been burned into my memory [17:52] for like 20 years, so. [17:54] Look at them, generational appeal, they get everyone with it. [17:58] But also, did you notice in that commercial that both the light and the TV went off? [18:02] So they clearly were showing, hey, we fixed that problem. [18:07] But also, I don't actually think that's how the clapper worked. [18:10] No. [18:11] That commercial may have been a lie. [18:13] So actually, this is a good place to get into this. [18:15] So the way the original clapper worked is, I would say, pretty much exactly the way you expect. [18:22] You clap on, clap off. [18:23] It is essentially just a microphone. [18:25] It had two plugs, and it's a microphone looking for sounds. [18:29] They attempt to make it more complicated than that in its ability to actually [18:34] understand what you're doing and why. [18:36] But basically, all it is, is it's a microphone, switches, and a sound filter. [18:42] The mic is always on. [18:43] You plug it into the wall, so the mic is always on. [18:45] And the filter is essentially looking to the specific frequency of a clap, [18:51] which has a noticeable sound frequency. [18:54] It is not the only thing that has that sound frequency, which becomes a big part of the problem. [18:59] But basically, it's this big frequency range in which you might be clapping. [19:04] And they end up deciding they do a bunch of testing to figure out that, okay, [19:08] how do we make sure this works? [19:10] Because if you just did one clap, any burst of noise will confuse this thing, right? [19:15] And so you need something that feels deliberate, that somebody would have to do on purpose that [19:20] doesn't just accidentally happen in your house all the time. [19:24] Because they know that lots of noises are going on in your house, [19:26] and we have to make sure it can pull those things out and just [19:30] hear when you're trying to clap in front of the thing. [19:32] So they decide it's going to be two claps. [19:36] And it ends up being very important that it is two claps in a very specific sequence. [19:41] Like, one of the reasons they do the clap on, clap off, [19:43] it's actually, that's roughly the sequence that you're supposed to clap on. [19:47] Oh, you mean like, clap on is the clap sequence. [19:50] Oh, that's smart. [19:53] Oh, there we go. [19:54] If you hear the song, you do the claps. [19:57] So basically, they have two switches and one switch is controlled with two claps. [20:03] So if you clap twice, it'll turn the thing on and off in that switch. [20:07] If you clap three times, which fun fact, I think over time turned out to be way more predictable. [20:12] Like, two claps I think is much easier to have happen by accident. [20:16] Three is much more likely to not get tripped and get lots of false positives. [20:22] But three is the other one. [20:24] So this ends up being the thing that they ship. [20:28] And they ship it in a box with very specific instructions. [20:31] And the instructions are, don't clap too hard. [20:35] You don't have to clap too hard. [20:36] You don't have to clap too loud. [20:38] This can be easy. [20:40] The timing is very important. [20:41] The volume is not the thing. [20:43] Really, all it's looking for is a burst of sound. [20:46] And there are... that is a... [20:50] Unless you put your sofa in front of the microphone and then it doesn't work, [20:55] and then you get to complain. [20:56] Yes. [20:57] This becomes a big problem for the clapper, [20:59] which is that people's houses are not the same. [21:02] And if you put this thing in somewhere sort of front and center and not near other sounds [21:08] or other, particularly, like you said, Alison, soft objects, it works. [21:13] This thing will successfully work most of the time if in sort of ideal conditions. [21:18] But it turns out, Alison, most people don't live in ideal conditions. [21:21] And I think if I have this right, people almost immediately discover [21:25] a million ways in which this can go wrong. [21:27] Putting your sofa in front of the clapper, bad idea. [21:29] It gets muffled. [21:30] It doesn't work. [21:32] Clapping too softly actually is a problem. [21:35] So if you do it too quietly, it doesn't work, right? [21:38] But the real problem is the timing. [21:42] You know, it is a clap, clap, and it's about a half second in between. [21:46] And if you clap too quickly or if there's too big a pause between your claps, [21:52] it's not going to work. [21:53] So you really have to get that rhythm. [21:56] So it's like you have to go to cheerleading practice. [22:00] You know that meme about whether you clap on one and three and two and four [22:03] and what is the right rhythm? [22:05] Our country can't even agree if we're one in three clappers or two in four clappers. [22:09] So it's tough, it's tough, it's tough. [22:14] Yeah. [22:14] And so this ends up being a much more successful version of it. [22:19] They solve a bunch of the problems. [22:20] It doesn't break anybody's TV. [22:21] They put this thing on sale. [22:22] It costs $20, which was a lot more in the 80s and 90s than it is today, [22:28] but is still like a relatively affordable technological object. [22:32] I mean, for the convenience, absolutely. [22:34] Totally. [22:35] Still, my parents weren't buying it for me, so. [22:37] Oh, mine wouldn't buy it for me either. [22:39] I feel like every single time I come on Virgin History, [22:41] I'm like, yeah, my parents wouldn't buy it for me because I really wanted it. [22:44] And I wanted this one too. [22:46] Let's quickly take a break and then we're going to come back [22:47] and the clapper goes off to have a very strange life. [22:52] Oh, there we go. [22:53] We'll be right back. [22:59] Are you a pet owner? [23:00] Every six seconds, a pet owner in the US gets hit with a vet bill over $1,000. [23:07] Always an unwelcome surprise. [23:09] That's where Fetch comes in. [23:11] Fetch is the most complete pet insurance for dogs and cats, [23:15] according to consumeradvocate.org. [23:17] You get paid back up to 90% of vet bills at any vet in the US and Canada, [23:22] with claims paid back in as little as two days. [23:26] Go to fetchpet.com slash save right now for your free quote. [23:30] That's fetchpet.com slash save. [23:36] All right, we're back. [23:38] So a very fun piece of the research that I did here [23:41] was to go and try to find all of the problems people had [23:44] with things that would set off the clapper by accident. [23:48] I would just like to present a few of them to you guys if that's okay. [23:51] Closing a door very loudly would often set off the clapper. [23:56] Having a dog that barked, this I would say is the number one problem [23:59] that people had was barking dogs would set off the clapper. [24:02] So a barking dog is the same frequency and rhythm as clap on, clap off. [24:08] Or at the very least close enough. [24:11] There were a lot of false positives. [24:12] Because again, I think a fascinating thing about this is [24:16] it's very important that this thing works when you want it to, right? [24:21] If you clap at it a bunch and it doesn't turn on, [24:25] I think just trying to psychoanalyze myself, that feels worse than false positives. [24:31] Can you imagine just aggressively clapping at the thing? [24:34] Just so it feels like you're applauding it, [24:37] but you're just like, you stupid thing, why won't you work? [24:42] But also like, what is your recourse if it's not working? [24:44] Because you can't like go over there and turn it on now [24:46] because it's now plugged into the special outlet. [24:48] And so you'd have to like take it all apart and try again. [24:51] So, you know, it's frustrating. [24:53] Totally. [24:54] And your dog is barking. [24:55] Right, your dog is barking. [24:57] So V, you just injured yourself. [24:59] I did. [25:00] Which becomes a thing, actually. [25:02] Yeah, there's a lawsuit. [25:03] Yeah, you actually described this lawsuit. [25:05] This is one of the funniest. [25:06] It's not funny, but it is funny parts of this whole story. [25:10] A woman says she clapped too hard and hurt her hands and files a lawsuit. [25:14] And so this does feed into the narrative of ridiculous lawsuits that Americans like to, [25:20] you know, file willy-nilly. [25:22] However, it did come right on the heels of the hot coffee from McDonald's lawsuit. [25:28] So it gets traction in, you know, the broader media. [25:33] And just to be clear, like the McDonald's lawsuit, that was serious injury. [25:38] The Clapper lawsuit, not so much serious injury. [25:41] So this is the thing. [25:42] And even the explicit instructions in the box with the Clapper are, [25:47] do not clap louder. [25:49] That is not the solution to your problem. [25:51] And yet, of course, you're only human, right? [25:55] The thing doesn't hear you. [25:56] You're like, how can I make it hear me? [25:57] I'm going to do it louder. [25:58] Do it louder. [25:59] Clap louder, even though it says don't clap louder. [26:02] And so there are like lots and lots and lots of stories over time of people complaining [26:07] that it is physically painful to use the Clapper for one reason or another. [26:10] Like, this is a real complaint with this product, which is bizarre. [26:14] Just say their whims. [26:15] Here we are. [26:16] Exactly. [26:17] Yeah, builds character. [26:19] But yeah, again, the timing is the key. [26:20] And there was also a clever thing on the box. [26:24] Not all clappers had this, but it particularly had at the beginning when it wasn't very accurate [26:28] where it had three little lights on it that would start to light up when it started to register [26:33] claps. [26:34] So it would hear a noise that it thought was a clap and one of the lights would go on [26:39] and it would hear another one and then the second light would go on and it would do [26:42] whatever it was supposed to do with the first switch. [26:44] And then if it heard a third one, it would light up the second switch too. [26:47] So it's actually this useful little bit of dynamic feedback of knowing when it is [26:52] and isn't actually registering that I think was a really smart. [26:55] I mean, again, if you could see it, if it's not hidden behind your sofa, so, you know. [26:59] Yeah, which is, and it's a bummer that this was the case, by the way, because again, [27:03] it's a big, ugly beige box that you're supposed to hang power cables from. [27:08] Like, this is not a thing designed to be seen. [27:11] It actually ought to be hidden. [27:14] And instead, the thing you have to do is put it somewhere in perfect view. [27:20] Open space. [27:21] Right. [27:22] But you couldn't put it next to your TV, [27:24] because one of the things that people complained about was they would be watching game shows [27:27] and people would suddenly start cheering and that would set off the clapper. [27:30] Oh, my God. [27:31] There were some TVs and stereos that apparently made noises as they were operating [27:36] that would activate the clapper. [27:38] So it ends up needing this perfect sonic environment where there are no noises, [27:45] but it is perfectly receptive to your noises. [27:48] And that doesn't exist. [27:49] This is not how people's homes actually are. [27:51] I mean, that's still a problem today, right? [27:52] With anything that's always on and always listening. [27:54] Like, you have the voice assistants. [27:56] They constantly think you're talking to them. [27:58] When you're not, you have the AI wearables that are making up fan fiction about your life [28:05] based on what they're hearing on TV, which is something that happened to me [28:09] multiple times with these recording devices. [28:12] So, you know, this is the start of all of that and we still haven't solved it. [28:16] So, good on us. [28:18] Indeed. [28:18] Alison, having looked into this, what's your sense of how successful a product this [28:23] thing was in the early days? [28:24] I actually had trouble figuring this out. [28:26] It was a cultural phenomenon kind of from the beginning. [28:30] Like, the latent awareness of the clapper seemed to happen very fast. [28:33] But it's hard for me to figure out if anybody was actually buying this thing in the early days. [28:37] Yeah. [28:38] In the early days, like, I don't have product figures. [28:40] So I can't give you like the actual numbers. [28:43] However, it does seem like sales don't really take off until the 90s. [28:48] So there is a lull period in the first couple of years before it gets on. [28:53] But, you know, you're asking about success. [28:55] And, you know, we can judge success in so many different ways. [28:58] Like, technologically success? [29:02] Questionable. [29:03] Like, sales success? [29:05] I mean, millions of these things have been sold for decades. [29:09] Like, you got to chalk up success there. [29:13] Like, in the, you know, just massive amount of product sold. [29:18] Like, so, you know, the fact that you can still buy them, like, you can still get them, [29:22] and they're still part of this conversation that you're having an entire episode on this. [29:26] Like, you know, like, I have to put that in the success category. [29:31] I think I agree. [29:32] Yeah. [29:32] And it does seem like it took a little while to really start to catch on. [29:37] Like, again, they started showing the commercials people knew what it was. [29:40] But it burbled along for a little while, and they spruced up the product a little bit, [29:44] and then it really started to take off. [29:46] One fascinating use of the clapper, by the way, that I have not talked about is [29:49] it had this thing called Away Mode. [29:51] And they also pitched the clapper a little bit as a security system. [29:55] That if you put it onto Away Mode, it would turn all of its connected stuff on [30:03] the minute it heard any noise at all. [30:05] So the idea is, like, you're going to be gone, and you want to deter an intruder. [30:11] So if it hears a door open, it'll turn on the light and the TV, [30:14] and that'll make them think somebody else is home, and they'll be gone. [30:16] At the same time, I think we all assume our burglars are really dumb. [30:20] Yes. This is one of the pieces of feedback they get on this, even in the early days, [30:25] of like, this is not actually solving any problems for anybody. [30:29] I opened the door, and suddenly the television turns on. [30:32] That's actually not a thing. [30:34] And also, the clapper folks at the beginning of this have to explicitly say, again, [30:39] in the instructions, that you are not to plug in anything heat-generating to this. [30:44] Oh, no. [30:45] Because there's a world in which you almost look at this as, like, [30:48] a prototypical smart plug that's like, what if I could wake up in the morning [30:51] and this is another sort of dream since time immemorial, [30:55] have my coffee start brewing for me while I'm still in bed? [30:58] Perfect, great, love it, awesome idea. [31:01] Should have been a great use for the clapper. [31:04] So many possibilities for disaster in that particular case. [31:07] Especially when we don't have the auto turn off yet. [31:10] Yeah, and so they're at this point of like, okay, you cannot plug in [31:14] anything that generates heat while you're doing this, which means [31:18] no temperature controlling devices. [31:20] It means no turning on the oven. [31:23] It means no coffee makers. [31:24] It really, you boil this thing down and it's just, it's lights. [31:29] Like, it's the only good, safe, correct use of this is lights. [31:33] Except for maybe the halogen lamps that were also really popular then [31:36] and also like to catch on fire, so. [31:38] Oh, my God. [31:39] So I think this starts to be just a completely doomed idea, right? [31:45] And I think the sort of next turn of this story is that they try [31:49] pretty heroically to build a better one. [31:53] Seriously, like in the 90s, they build a thing called the clapper plus, [31:56] which ships with Alison and remote control because we're just, [32:01] where they've given up. [32:04] We don't need to go back and go our own company history. [32:06] We don't need to read those original patents. [32:08] No, no, no, let's just have a remote control. [32:10] Oh, my God. [32:11] Wait, wait. [32:12] So the remote control controlled the clapper? [32:15] Correct. [32:17] Okay. [32:18] It's, listen, all of the reasons you don't think this makes sense [32:22] are exactly correct. [32:23] But if you think about it, like, again, one of the reasons I love [32:26] the clapper is it is, it is such a good idea until you think about it for one second. [32:30] Also, yeah, you you laughing turned it on. [32:33] Oh, people should know that feel however you want about that. [32:40] But it is it just it is a good, clever idea in a vacuum that turns out to be just [32:44] completely incompatible with people's actual lives. [32:47] One of the things they discover actually in the road to developing a remote control is [32:52] that one of the people for whom the clapper is most honestly useful is elderly people. [32:58] It's, you know, the grandma in the commercial is a real use case for this. [33:01] People who can't get up to go turn off the lights. [33:04] Like, this ends up being a sort of powerful use case for smart home stuff in general. [33:08] Like, it's accessibility use is really important. [33:10] Really remarkable how so much of the smart home narrative today, [33:14] like, is kind of encapsulated in this one device that didn't work. [33:19] And now we have devices that basically do what it was proposing to do, [33:24] but in a smarter way, like, kind of, because they're still the same problems [33:29] with the false positives. [33:31] And, you know, well, now we have a new one with your Wi-Fi going out. [33:34] Right. [33:34] But I'm still like, like, thinking about the fact that, you know, [33:39] before we were adding plus to every single streaming service, we had the clapper plus. [33:43] And the concept of having a remote control to control the [33:47] thing that you bought to get rid of your remotes. [33:49] This is what we do. [33:50] This is what we do. [33:51] That is the cycle of technology. [33:54] Yeah. [33:55] Basically, we forget everything. [33:57] We forget everything that we've ever learned. [33:59] So we're just like, let's try it again. [34:01] Yeah. [34:01] But this group of people, the elderly users, also not into the idea of spending a lot [34:07] of their time loudly clapping for a variety of reasons, right? [34:10] So the idea of having a remote control to essentially control a smart plug in the wall [34:16] works. [34:16] Makes sense. [34:17] Like, I would like to be able to easily, with a button, [34:20] turn off my light from across the room, is maybe the most directionally correct [34:25] idea the clapper ever had, which is very fun. [34:29] And so they end up, they start working on these things. [34:32] They add surge protection so that if something happens to one of your devices [34:36] or if something happens in your house, it won't all fry and fall apart. [34:40] They add more outlets. [34:41] They let you train different kinds of claps to different kinds of things. [34:46] They develop sort of more complicated macros. [34:48] So again, there's like, if you just take the very nuggets of these ideas, [34:54] they're kind of right, right? [34:55] They are. [34:56] Oh, do we want routines? [34:58] We want scenes. [34:59] We want macros. [34:59] We want to be able to do more stuff for more places. [35:02] It's like, it's all right there. [35:03] They just had this fundamentally wrong idea that we should be starting with [35:06] an acoustic switch that you control by clapping. [35:08] Could you just imagine trying to do a series of commands and having to clap [35:15] all in different rhythms and patterns and just... [35:18] Morse code your way through all of your commands. [35:22] Or just like, what's the dance where you're just clapping all the time? [35:26] You know, it's like, oh, let me start the coffee maker. [35:29] Yeah. [35:30] Yeah. [35:31] I mean, like, the problem is that they're working with the technology [35:34] they have at the time. [35:34] And we don't have what, like, it's just not there yet, right? [35:38] You know, we're so close. [35:39] Like, the timing is so close and it's just not there. [35:42] I know. [35:42] This is actually one of the fun sliding doors moments of when this thing came to be. [35:48] That is like, if you even start developing this 10 years later, [35:52] you probably do it completely differently and it ends up being [35:54] a really different kind of product. [35:57] But I also wonder, and this is just a thing I've been thinking about a lot [36:01] in the research of this. [36:02] If it hadn't been clapping, would it have been as novel and as cool? [36:08] Like, if they had just marketed this thing as a smart switch with a remote, [36:10] turn off your lights from across the room, but you don't clap, [36:14] does it have any of the cultural staying power that it does? [36:18] Alison, what do you think? [36:19] Absolutely not. [36:20] I think the clapping is fundamental to the clapper. [36:25] I'm sorry. [36:25] I think, like, yeah, the interaction. [36:27] Like, you know, it has you doing something and you are, [36:31] you know, through your own bodily control, you know, [36:34] channeling the lights. [36:35] So, yeah. [36:36] No, I think you had to have the clap. [36:38] Like, if it's just another remote control that you're going to lose, [36:41] like, why? [36:41] You know, like, I don't think it would have, like, no, no. [36:44] The clapping, it's important. [36:46] And I think it had to be clapping. [36:47] I don't think it could be something else. [36:49] Like, imagine having to do it with whistling. [36:52] There are way too many frequencies of whistling. [36:54] Oh, geez, yeah. [36:55] Some people can't even whistle. [36:57] Yeah. [36:57] So, and then imagine the dogs. [36:59] Like, it'd be terrible. [37:00] Oh, geez. [37:00] Yeah. [37:01] So, yeah. [37:01] No, I think it has to be clapping. [37:03] I'm on board with clapping. [37:05] V, what do you think? [37:07] I think, I don't know, I'm kind of mixed on my opinion there, [37:12] because I do think that the idea of just having a remote to turn off the light, [37:16] there are, there's a subsect of, like, tech dads who have existed since time in memorial, [37:21] who would have been like, oh, look, honey. [37:23] More buttons. [37:23] I don't have more buttons and would have been totally into it. [37:27] But I do think there's something universal about clapping. [37:30] It doesn't matter what language you speak. [37:32] You know how to clap. [37:32] And just the jingles of the time and the fact that I remember, [37:38] like, when we were talking about this episode, [37:41] I didn't remember the name of the device. [37:43] But someone was like, it's the thing where you clap and lights turn on. [37:46] And I was like, oh, the core memory unlocked. [37:50] So, I do think that the clapping, it has, like, a rhythmic, like, acoustic, [37:56] it's kind of like a hook in a music song where it's really catchy, [37:59] where it gets stuck in your head. [38:01] So, I don't know. [38:03] Maybe Joseph P. Dot could have come up with a jingle for the remote light. [38:07] I believe in him. [38:08] He could probably figure it out. [38:09] But the clapping, I think, is pretty, pretty iconic. [38:13] I just keep trying to imagine the commercial without the clapping. [38:17] And it just doesn't, I just feel like there's no way to make it hit as hard. [38:21] Well, I don't know if it was still called the Great American turn on, maybe. [38:24] I can imagine that commercial, right? [38:27] Like, just imagine that one going on. [38:29] Turn on, turn off. [38:31] America, I did turn off. [38:35] That was perfect. [38:36] I changed my mind. [38:38] The Great American turn on, I think, would have been very successful in the United States, [38:42] but would have had a lot of very confused buyers for what was going on here. [38:46] But, no, I think, like, there were a lot of different things that they tried on this. [38:50] They, at one point, made a little metal device that would talk to it. [38:55] They called it the cricket, and it would basically make chirping sounds [39:00] that were designed very specifically to hit the tuning on the box [39:05] in order to activate the clapper. [39:06] So, instead of clapping or yelling or pressing a button, [39:09] you could just do, like, a synthetic chirp to get it to work. [39:12] They tried all kinds of things to make this thing more accurate. [39:15] They're basically dog training your clapper. [39:18] Yeah, that's exactly right. [39:19] It's like clicker training, and they obviously have never interacted, [39:23] like, with little kids. [39:24] Like, do you know how horrible that would be with everybody? [39:27] With pets. [39:27] Like, all of their clickers. [39:28] Like, I feel like pets are the greatest foe of the clapper, [39:32] and even with this chirpy thing, do you know how triggered my cat Petey would be? [39:38] Hearing that thing. [39:39] He would just go, he just hears the thing, and he goes, [39:42] and then he's, like, in murder mode. [39:44] So, the clapper would be killed by Petey. [39:47] Sort of a, you know, default say from those cats, so. [39:51] Yeah, that's exactly right. [39:52] I mean, can you tell I love dogs? [39:56] My dog would also not be psyched about this, to be fair. [39:58] But this is the thing, throughout this whole process, [40:00] I've been just, like, obsessively trying to figure out, [40:03] is if it hadn't been clapping. [40:06] Like, what if clapping is the only thing they were wrong about, right? [40:08] That a bunch of the other stuff eventually came true, [40:11] essentially the way the clapper imagined it. [40:14] That wouldn't it be great if I could turn off my lights [40:16] without going across the room? [40:18] Wouldn't it be great if I had sort of different cadences [40:21] to control different things? [40:22] What if all of my house could be a little bit smarter in this way? [40:25] This dream is not dead. [40:27] We've all learned to set up weird Alexa routines [40:30] to make this stuff happen with our lights. [40:32] People are buying incredibly expensive smart lights [40:34] just to do this thing. [40:35] There are a lot of smart home experts who will tell you, [40:38] like, screw all the rest of that, [40:39] just buy smart plugs that turn things on and off, [40:41] and you'll be amazed at how much better your life becomes. [40:44] So, it's like, maybe the clapper had all of this right [40:46] except the clapping. [40:48] But then, I think, Alison, like you said, [40:50] I come back to this point where it's like, [40:51] if it didn't clap, it wouldn't have been as fun. [40:54] And the fact that it kind of didn't work very well, [40:58] would have ruined it in a way that it didn't, [41:00] because the clapping was so fun. [41:01] I mean, you would have had to have much better technology. [41:04] Like, the technology would have had to actually work if you... [41:08] Right. [41:09] Like, if it wasn't going to be fun, it had to work. [41:11] Yeah, and I think at that time, [41:12] there was probably no way to make the technology work. [41:15] But also, with clapping, it works just enough amounts of times [41:20] that you could say, well, like, it sometimes works. [41:23] Yeah. [41:24] Which kind of gives it, like, a legitimacy that I think [41:27] the other stuff, it just wouldn't have. [41:29] So, I think it has to be clapping. [41:31] I mean, which also, like, it plays into the novelty aspect [41:34] of it, right? Because it works just enough, [41:36] and it is a novelty, and then it becomes a gift, [41:39] and then they, you know, decide that they are going to make [41:42] all different novelty-style, like, clappers. [41:46] So, you can get a clapper in, like, [41:48] any kind of, like, superhero cartoon, you know, [41:53] any kind of cultural moment, like, the clapper. [41:56] They're like, we're on that. [41:58] Yep. [41:58] I think novelty, Alison, I think is exactly the right word. [42:01] And it's why I think the fact that this is a Joseph P. Dot [42:05] product is the thing, right? [42:07] Like, this is not a tech company in the 80s. [42:10] This is not Sony or RCA or, you know, somebody like that [42:14] trying to pull this thing off. [42:14] They're not selling it in Radio Shack. [42:16] No, he's also, like, hawking the garden weasel, so. [42:19] Right, right. [42:20] And they end up making the of glove. [42:23] This is the most silly, as-seen-on-TV kind of stuff [42:28] that you can find. [42:29] Even the box is this very, like, kitschy, fun, [42:33] extremely 80s thing that is not, in any way, a tech product, [42:38] which I think is so fascinating. [42:40] Like, it's, in a certain way, really high-tech, [42:43] and yet, in no way is it actually sort of considered [42:47] or marketed or sold as a tech product, [42:49] which I just think is really interesting. [42:51] And there's not a lot of things out there quite like that. [42:56] But they do continue to try to make better clappers. [42:59] There was a Bob Ross clapper. [43:01] I love that. [43:02] That would say things to you. [43:03] Like, there's a lot of clappers still out there, [43:05] but they make them work better. [43:06] I think, over time, they actually got to the point [43:07] where they were, like, substantially better. [43:09] They're pretty reliable. [43:11] Yeah, like, I don't think you can't fix this problem [43:13] completely just because there are other things [43:15] that sound like claps in the world, [43:17] but they got much better over time. [43:20] But the problem was, right about the time [43:22] they started to get better, [43:25] better technology seemed like it just started [43:28] to completely leave it behind, right? [43:29] Allison, is that a fair characterization? [43:32] 100%. [43:33] Okay. What left it behind? [43:35] So many different things. [43:36] Well, first off, internet and Wi-Fi came along, [43:40] and then we changed that. [43:41] But also, things like fluorescent light bulbs came [43:44] along, and the clapper is not compatible [43:46] with fluorescent light bulbs. [43:48] And so, you know, and then you end up with televisions [43:52] that are always on, and you then are using the remote [43:55] for, you know, changing channels and things like that. [43:58] And so, suddenly, the technology of your other appliances [44:02] has outstripped just the technology of your, [44:05] you know, your electrical socket. [44:07] And so, you know, yeah, it kind of goes wrong [44:11] in all of the ways it could go wrong. [44:13] That's actually a really good, [44:14] and I think important piece of this [44:16] that I had not really thought about until I started [44:19] doing this research, that there was a long time [44:21] that the only power state most of your devices had [44:24] was plugged or unplugged. [44:25] If you plugged it in, it was on, [44:27] and to turn it off, you unplugged it. [44:29] And that is how many things worked for a very long time. [44:34] Now, the only thing I can think of that I own [44:36] that works like that is my George Foreman grill. [44:39] I have a, like, decades-old V just turned it on [44:42] by laughing again. [44:43] This is the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. [44:46] I have a very old George Foreman grill, [44:47] and it literally, it has no power switch. [44:49] It has no states. [44:50] You plug it in, and it's on, and then you unplug it, [44:53] and it's off. [44:53] And for a long time, that's how electronics largely worked. [44:56] But then, like you're saying, Allison, [44:58] we got to the point where your TV could be plugged in [45:00] and off, and what it's actually doing is going [45:02] into an essentially powerless, [45:05] but not all-the-way powerless state [45:07] so that it can do things like turn on faster. [45:09] Vampire mode. [45:10] Vampire mode, exactly. [45:11] Well, it's sucking out your electricity. [45:13] Right, and so so many other devices work like that. [45:16] And the way the clapper worked was by just cutting power [45:20] to the thing. [45:20] So the whole sort of foundational idea of this [45:24] just kind of falls apart right as the technology [45:27] for it to work actually becomes sort of useful. [45:30] And yet, people keep buying clappers. [45:34] This is the thing. [45:36] Our story ends in the most fun place. [45:38] So Joseph P. sells the company in 2018. [45:41] He died in 2023. [45:42] He was in his 90s. [45:44] He had a good, long life. [45:45] He was a philanthropist, truly fascinating guy. [45:48] I encourage everybody to go spend a few minutes [45:50] reading about Joseph P. Dot. [45:51] Good guy. [45:51] He was a really good guy. [45:52] Yeah, he had a super hard childhood [45:55] and turned into a good guy who took care of a lot of people. [45:58] So very cool story. [46:00] But you can still today in 2026 buy a clapper. [46:04] You can go on Amazon and you can buy a Mandalorian [46:08] and Grogu themed clapper. [46:10] You can buy a Darth Vader clapper. [46:12] Like this thing persists. [46:15] Seems like a very specific subset of people [46:17] who are wanting this. [46:18] You can tell. [46:20] True. [46:20] Who are the people who want that? [46:23] What universe are they in? [46:25] I don't know. [46:25] I want the Bob Ross one. [46:27] I want to clap and have him go happy little trees [46:31] and then go to bed. [46:32] That's what I want. [46:34] Sure. [46:35] Okay, but here's my thing. [46:37] Every bit of the novelty of that can be achieved [46:40] a thousand other ways. [46:41] And I'm not pretending these are like hugely successful. [46:45] Nobody is comparing the sales of the C3PO clapper [46:48] to like an Amazon Echo speaker, right? [46:51] But these things are still out there [46:52] and people are still buying them. [46:53] And you can go on Amazon and you can buy new ones [46:57] that have recent reviews. [46:59] Like there are humans in the world buying these things. [47:02] We also have this is I think the most modern version [47:06] of the clapper. [47:07] You can currently buy it on Amazon for $23.99. [47:10] This just looks like a smart plug. [47:11] That does look like a smart plug. [47:13] Price has not changed. [47:14] I know, it's kind of amazing. [47:16] This is, it has, it's a beige box. [47:18] It has the three indicator lights [47:20] and it lets you plug two things into it. [47:22] Like this is the original clapper in a different box. [47:26] Just looks like a smart plug. [47:27] It has four stars on Amazon and it has 14,825 ratings. [47:32] People are still buying these things. [47:33] They're still not. [47:34] Allison, why are people still buying these things? [47:35] They really care about it. [47:36] They care about it. [47:39] Why do we buy anything? [47:40] I mean, it's going to make our life easier, right? [47:43] But this is the thing. [47:45] Is this just a pure nostalgia play at this point? [47:47] It's a funny thing to buy for your parents at Christmas [47:50] that they'll remember from the eighties. [47:52] Is that all this is now? [47:53] I don't think so. [47:54] I don't think, not the one that you're holding in your hand, V. [47:57] Like that's just too utilitarian. [48:00] But people buy things for all sorts of reasons, right? [48:04] And we can't even imagine what is it that they want to turn on [48:08] and off by their clapping that necessitates. [48:12] And it's filling that gap. [48:14] And who are we to judge those 14,000 people out there [48:17] who are refueling clappers today? [48:20] Fair. [48:21] It's a nice way to think about it. [48:22] There are a bunch of people who seem to buy these things for Christmas [48:25] as a way to sort of goofily manage your holiday decorations. [48:30] A lot of people seem to like plugging their holiday lights into a clapper. [48:35] And you can just control it that way. [48:37] You can be like, I'd let there be light, clap, clap, [48:39] because I don't want it to turn on. [48:41] But yeah, no, I think there is something there. [48:44] Because when I was at CES this year, [48:46] I saw I think might be the next evolution of the clapper. [48:50] But there's no sound involved. [48:51] It was these people who, with a smartwatch type device, [48:55] would let you just wave at your devices and turn them on. [48:59] So you could feel like a Jedi just going like, turn on, turn off. [49:04] And to your point about the audience [49:06] who wants these novelty clappers based on the themes [49:09] that we're seeing, maybe it's just people [49:11] who want to feel like a Jedi in real life. [49:15] I mean, the Force is well within them. [49:19] And it's actually not important that it works all the time, [49:22] because it's super rad when it does. [49:24] And that counts for something. [49:25] All right, let's take one more break, [49:26] and then we're going to come back. [49:27] And we're going to do the version history questions [49:29] to figure out the legacy once and for all of the clapper. [49:32] We'll be right back. [49:36] All right, we're back. [49:38] It's time now for the version history questions. [49:39] That, me saying we're back, just turned on the clapper. [49:42] We're doing great, everybody. [49:44] There we go. [49:46] The eight questions that we ask about every product [49:48] to try and determine its legacy. [49:50] The first question is, where does this product fit [49:52] on the time matrix? [49:53] The time matrix, a very straightforward concept [49:55] everyone understands. [49:56] Was it the right idea at the right time? [49:57] Was it the wrong idea at the wrong time? [49:59] Or somewhere in between? [50:00] Alison, you may have just teased to us [50:02] that you have a very complicated answer to this question. [50:05] I would love to hear it. [50:06] I was going to say, yeah. [50:07] Well, I mean, time is so much longer than a pinpoint. [50:11] And this product has been around for 40 plus years. [50:15] So it should really be a graph, not a dot in time, [50:19] but 100% right idea. [50:22] And I actually think it's right time in its place scene. [50:27] Yes, I would put it there. [50:28] Interesting. [50:29] But then as time continues, you have [50:32] to make your graph dimensional here, [50:35] add in a third dimension. [50:38] It's always the right idea, and then it falls out of time. [50:42] OK, so you think it's the right idea the whole time. [50:45] And at first, it's the right time, [50:47] and then it's the wrong time. [50:48] Correct. [50:49] Interesting. [50:50] See, my immediate response to this [50:52] is wrong idea, wrong time. [50:54] This thing is like a total whiff on everything [50:57] that it's actually trying to do. [50:59] But this is where, like, Alison, you said the word novelty, [51:02] and now I can't get it out of my head. [51:03] This thing as a silly, fun thing to have in your house [51:07] was great. [51:08] And everything about it was actually executed correctly [51:11] if that's the direction you're going. [51:13] If you're trying to make this a successful precursor [51:15] to the smart home, they whiffed. [51:18] Every important thing they tried to do, they did wrong. [51:22] And so I guess in that sense, maybe it is the right idea, [51:26] just bad execution. [51:28] I just think it's the right idea at the wrong time. [51:30] You think it's the right idea at the wrong time? [51:31] The idea has persisted for 40 years. [51:34] We want to hope forever that you could just do the thing [51:38] and have the lights turn off. [51:40] This is like an innate human desire for, [51:43] I think, until we no longer have electricity [51:46] and we go back to a post-apocalyptic world [51:49] where there is no electricity. [51:50] So I think it's for, I agree with Alison, [51:52] that it's forever the right idea. [51:54] But there's just never the right time for it. [51:57] Never the right time? [51:58] It's never the right time for it, [52:00] except maybe in the week before Christmas [52:05] where dads everywhere just want to clap [52:08] and say, let there be light. [52:09] That's the only time. [52:10] So I think to Alison's point, we need a third dimension. [52:13] And for one week every year, right before Christmas, [52:16] it is the right idea at the right time. [52:19] But every other time, it's the right idea [52:21] at the wrong time. [52:22] Because it's never the right time for this thing, [52:24] except for that one week. [52:25] I'm willing to give it right idea wrong time [52:28] with a Christmas asterisk right next to it. [52:32] That works for me. [52:33] Yeah, I think that's right. [52:35] And I think this launched, [52:36] this came out so far before anybody was doing [52:39] really actually high-tech smart home stuff [52:43] that I'm inclined to give it more credit than most [52:46] because it's not like it missed some other thing [52:48] that it should have caught in 1985. [52:50] It's just that the thing it tried to do didn't work [52:53] and never, ever, ever, ever was going to. [52:56] No. [52:56] 40 years later, we have invented all of the technology [52:59] you would need to make this work. [53:01] And yet, it sure doesn't. [53:02] We still have a latest model. [53:05] That's good stuff. [53:06] All right. [53:06] I think we're going to go right idea wrong time. [53:09] You guys have talked me into it. [53:10] But Alison, please know that your love [53:13] for where it was at the beginning is no good. [53:15] Okay, thank you. [53:16] All right, question number two. [53:18] Was this peak anything? [53:19] Advertising, peak advertising. [53:21] I was going to say peak as seen on TV. [53:25] That was my first one, too. [53:26] Yeah, no, absolutely. [53:28] It's also like that gets back to the right time [53:30] because it is a time when actually advertising [53:34] could reach everybody at the same time [53:36] because we only had three to five channels, [53:38] depending on when you are. [53:39] So everybody saw this commercial. [53:42] Now, no one sees any of the same commercials. [53:44] That's such a good point. [53:45] And this was kind of right at the end of that era. [53:48] Cable and stuff start to grow up right then. [53:51] Yeah, it's right as like cables coming on. [53:53] Yeah. [53:53] Yeah, that's interesting. [53:55] So this is sort of the last chance you ever have [53:57] to brain worm people in this particular way [54:00] by beating a commercial and a jingle over there. [54:02] Well, unless you put it on TikTok now, [54:04] it's just a different QVC channel [54:07] where I can just imagine someone doing a TikTok dance [54:11] with the clapper. [54:12] Can you imagine that? [54:14] Could you do that dance for us right now, V? [54:16] It's probably, you know, it's the Charli XC song. [54:21] Dance with the clapping. [54:23] Oh, that's good. [54:24] With the apple dance. [54:26] That's the clapper TikTok dance. [54:28] To everybody watching and listening to this, [54:29] please make a clapper TikTok dance. [54:32] Share it on TikTok. [54:33] And if this becomes a thing, we will make V do it [54:35] on our TikTok. [54:36] I'm a terrible dancer, but I'll do it. [54:39] Was this peak clapping? [54:40] Was this the coolest clapping ever was? [54:42] I feel good about it. [54:43] Peak novelty. [54:45] Peak novelty. [54:47] Not bad. [54:48] That one's hard. [54:49] There's a lot of novelty out there. [54:51] Is this peak novelty? [54:53] Honestly, I think even the Chia pet [54:55] is probably more peak novelty than Joseph P. [54:58] Dot might have been peak novelty. [55:00] He was. [55:01] Did you guys have anything else? [55:02] Peak anything? [55:04] Laziness? [55:05] Oh, peak laziness is a high bar, Alison. [55:09] That's a lot of... [55:11] Have we gotten less lazy since the 80s? [55:14] I mean, we still want this product, so like... [55:17] That is true. [55:18] I had a real moment in researching this [55:19] where I was like, this seems good. [55:21] Maybe I should get one of these. [55:23] I've been fighting that feeling this entire pod. [55:26] I was like, do I want one of these? [55:27] Because I got the smart lights. [55:29] I got them on a routine. [55:30] You know the answer is yes. [55:32] It's only $23 on Amazon. [55:35] Also, one thing this has going for it that... [55:38] And actually, well, we'll get to this in a second, [55:42] but I have a very clear answer to the question number five, [55:47] what feature of this thing [55:48] should every current version have? [55:50] Actually, let's just do this out of order. [55:52] This is the next question, [55:53] and I'll answer this first, [55:55] is what feature of this thing [55:56] should every current version have? [55:57] And my answer is one very simple common knowledge way [56:02] to turn something off. [56:04] Like, right now, if you have a smart home, [56:07] your smart home is utterly unknowable [56:09] to anyone other than you, [56:11] including possibly your spouse, [56:13] including anyone who doesn't live [56:15] at your house that comes over. [56:17] You have to have named your lamps things [56:19] so that people can address them directly [56:21] and turn them off. [56:22] And the idea that I am sitting on your couch [56:25] and I want to turn the lights off, [56:26] and I actually know how to do it [56:27] because all I have to do is clap twice. [56:29] That didn't work. [56:30] Is a very good and powerful [56:32] and correct smart home control [56:34] that I think to me is one of the reasons [56:36] this is so enticing is it's not... [56:37] You don't have to set anything up. [56:39] You don't have to learn a new behavior. [56:40] You don't have to remember how it works. [56:43] You just didn't work again that time either. [56:46] Clapper's doing great, everybody. [56:47] This is fun. [56:49] To your point. [56:50] That to me is actually one of the things [56:52] that is so enticing about this. [56:53] It's like you already know how to use it [56:55] in a way that doesn't exist [56:57] with most smart home technology. [56:59] A universal turn off is something that I do want [57:02] because I have existed for the last two years. [57:05] I bought my first home with my spouse [57:07] and it has been a two-year cold war [57:09] about how we control our lights. [57:10] Yep. [57:11] I use voice control [57:12] and I've taped washi tape [57:14] over all the manual switches [57:15] because if he touches those switches, [57:18] my voice control is not going to work. [57:20] And it's an argument every single day [57:24] because they're like, [57:25] why? [57:26] Let me show you how to do a shortcut on your phone [57:29] and it's much easier to control it that way. [57:31] And meanwhile he just walks over [57:32] and just turns off the light. [57:34] No, we don't touch... [57:35] It's a whole argument. [57:37] I wrote about it for theverge.com [57:39] about how smartifying my home [57:42] turned into a cold war over lights [57:44] and it persists two years later. [57:46] So I would love a universal [57:50] just clap, clap every night [57:52] and all the lights turn off. [57:54] All on, all off. [57:56] That seems like a really easy way [57:58] to turn things off. [58:00] Yes. [58:01] Yeah. [58:01] And instead we've just vastly [58:03] overcomplicated everything. [58:04] I guess the flip side is that [58:06] it works more often [58:08] when you do those things, [58:09] but people don't know how to do them. [58:11] Alison, what's your answer? [58:11] What feature of this thing [58:12] should every current version have? [58:13] What should we seal from the clapper for 2026? [58:17] I think it needs to work. [58:20] Oh no, I did it again. [58:22] The feature just needs to be work. [58:26] It's a good idea. [58:27] I support this. [58:29] It's a crazy idea, but I like it. [58:32] I also appreciate the indicator lights. [58:36] That sort of tell you [58:37] when a thing is listening to you [58:38] and aware and working. [58:39] There's also not enough of that [58:41] in the smart home. [58:41] There's a lot of shouting at things [58:43] and hoping it registers. [58:45] Me, every day. [58:46] Yeah, and things just sort of [58:48] silently fail all the time. [58:50] The clapper at least tells you [58:52] it can't hear you [58:54] because nothing happens. [58:56] Okay, going back to the other questions. [58:57] If you could time travel back [58:59] and develop it yourself, [59:00] could you make the product [59:01] more successful? [59:02] No, no. [59:06] I think it's a fixed point in time. [59:08] You know, like with all the time travel theories, [59:10] there's just like an immovable point [59:11] that can't be changed. [59:13] I feel like this is just a fixed. [59:15] There's nothing I could do [59:16] besides making it work. [59:18] Well, so this is what I was going to ask [59:20] is do you go back and tell Joseph P dot [59:23] don't even try with this. [59:24] It's never going to work. [59:27] This is a doomed product. [59:28] No, no, no, because it's not doomed. [59:31] It's a success, right? [59:33] Again, millions and millions sold. [59:35] I mean, except for not working. [59:36] It's a success. [59:38] No, I'm with V that. [59:39] This is a fixed point in time. [59:41] I'm all about the time travel [59:43] and you are correct. [59:44] There's nothing you can do. [59:46] However, you know, I am a historian [59:48] and what I would like to do [59:51] to maybe not make the product better, [59:52] but to make the story better [59:54] is like just like say, okay, [59:56] let me set up your personal archive here [59:58] so that we will have [59:59] all the right documentation to do this. [01:00:02] And you know, this is something I think about [01:00:03] like all the time right now [01:00:05] because, you know, historians are always [01:00:06] trying to be like, [01:00:08] what could we save today [01:00:09] that will be useful in the future? [01:00:12] And, you know, we were always having to judge, [01:00:14] you know, this is like the challenge [01:00:15] for archivists, right? [01:00:17] Because, you know, we can't save everything. [01:00:18] You need to just like keep it, right? [01:00:20] And so, you know, there's so many people [01:00:22] who I want to just be like, [01:00:23] hey, Hudson Williams and Connor Story, [01:00:26] let me set up your personal archive [01:00:28] so you know how your biography [01:00:30] is going to be written in 50 years. [01:00:32] So, you know, that's what I would like to do. [01:00:35] This thing is preventing me from laughing. [01:00:38] Allison, it makes me incredibly happy [01:00:40] that if we invent time travel, [01:00:41] you're going to go back and just tell people [01:00:42] to take more notes about themselves. [01:00:44] That's very heartwarming. [01:00:45] I love that for you. [01:00:46] I mean, I'm just going to like be like, [01:00:48] these are the things that you need to save. [01:00:49] Like all this other stuff, let it go. [01:00:51] But this, this is what you need. [01:00:53] I mean, if you want your story told [01:00:55] the way you want it told, let's be clear. [01:00:57] Yeah, yeah, I buy it. [01:00:59] I think I tend to agree that there is, [01:01:02] there's not a thing [01:01:04] we could have told him [01:01:05] that he didn't already know, right? [01:01:06] Because the fact of it not working great, [01:01:10] abundantly clear to everybody, [01:01:11] including him at the very beginning. [01:01:13] I mean, at the very, [01:01:14] he bought a faulty product. [01:01:16] Exactly. [01:01:16] Knowing that it was. [01:01:17] The first thing he did was like [01:01:19] hire engineers and say make this better. [01:01:21] Like he knew that this was a terrible product. [01:01:24] Totally. [01:01:25] And then also he's like, [01:01:26] and I'm going to sell it. [01:01:28] It's like no qualms at all about that. [01:01:31] No, none. [01:01:32] Just didn't even care. [01:01:33] Yeah, I'm glad that he becomes [01:01:34] a great philanthropist [01:01:35] because otherwise you're just knowingly [01:01:37] selling like terrible things. [01:01:38] He could have used his powers for evil. [01:01:41] That's definitely true. [01:01:43] Yeah, it's good that he turned all of his [01:01:46] add magic to funny things [01:01:48] that people had in their houses [01:01:49] and not something more nefarious. [01:01:51] Yeah, I kind of wonder if you go back [01:01:52] and you're like Joseph, [01:01:53] don't even worry about [01:01:53] trying to make this thing better. [01:01:55] Like you're going to spend a lot of time [01:01:57] over the next 20 years [01:01:57] trying to improve this product. [01:01:59] Don't worry about it. [01:02:00] It's never going to get there. [01:02:01] Just keep selling this. [01:02:02] Make more commercials. [01:02:03] It's going to be fine. [01:02:06] Alright, next question. [01:02:07] Question number four. [01:02:08] Will the youth ever make it cool again? [01:02:10] Alison, do you think there's a nostalgic [01:02:12] rebirth in in store for the clapper? [01:02:16] I would like question. [01:02:18] Was it ever cool? [01:02:19] And who is making it cool? [01:02:22] And yes, like the question [01:02:24] isn't ever been there. [01:02:26] And if not, like it's where it is. [01:02:28] It's in the land of kitsch [01:02:30] and it will always remain [01:02:31] in the land of kitsch. [01:02:33] TikTok dance. [01:02:34] I'm just saying. [01:02:35] Make the clapper cool TikTok challenge. [01:02:37] I'll do it. [01:02:39] I'll do it. [01:02:41] It is like the horror show [01:02:43] of a TikTok dance meets the flamenco [01:02:45] to get a clapper on and off [01:02:47] is really an idea whose time has come. [01:02:49] I'm pretty excited about it. [01:02:50] Alright, we have three questions left. [01:02:52] These are the Virgin History Hall of Fame questions. [01:02:54] A product has to meet [01:02:55] all three of these criteria [01:02:56] has to pass all three of these tests [01:02:58] to get into the Virgin History Hall of Fame. [01:03:00] Question number one. [01:03:00] Did this product do something [01:03:02] truly new? [01:03:04] Alison, what do you think? [01:03:05] I've been thinking about this [01:03:06] ever since she sent me these questions [01:03:08] and I'm like, I'm going to say yes. [01:03:12] It got people thinking like when I say people, [01:03:16] I mean all of America [01:03:18] thinking about the possibility [01:03:21] of home automation. [01:03:22] And like, I think that is a big start. [01:03:25] So yes, that's a good answer. [01:03:27] Yeah, I think the clapper [01:03:30] in sort of history [01:03:32] is sort of fascinating in that sense [01:03:33] that the idea of home automation [01:03:35] was not new, [01:03:36] but it was like wonky and complicated [01:03:40] and not in most people's minds. [01:03:41] And I think you're right [01:03:42] that this is probably the first time [01:03:44] anything home automation smart homie [01:03:47] felt plausible to most people [01:03:50] and like something that might [01:03:51] actually end in your home. [01:03:54] And that's a big deal. [01:03:55] So I agree. [01:03:56] V, thoughts? [01:03:57] It did because people were [01:03:58] clapping at their lights. [01:04:00] So that was new. [01:04:02] No time in history before [01:04:03] where people clapping at their lights. [01:04:06] So yeah, I don't know. [01:04:07] Like the invention of the light bulb, [01:04:08] they mean like, whoa, wait, [01:04:10] no longer candles. [01:04:12] Good job. [01:04:13] Okay, besides that point [01:04:15] where people went electricity, [01:04:17] clap, clap, clap, [01:04:18] which is arguably for electricity, [01:04:20] not the light. [01:04:22] At no other point [01:04:23] before the clapper [01:04:24] has anyone gone like, [01:04:27] clap, clap. [01:04:28] You don't think Thomas Edison [01:04:30] was sitting there in his lab going, [01:04:32] why is nothing happening? [01:04:34] No. [01:04:35] There we go. [01:04:36] Telling you it's the cadence. [01:04:38] Clap off. [01:04:39] Okay, yeah. [01:04:40] We got it down now. [01:04:41] All right. [01:04:41] So it passes the first test. [01:04:44] Hall of Fame question number two. [01:04:45] Was it either remarkably good [01:04:46] or remarkably bad? [01:04:47] It was so remarkably bad [01:04:49] that it became remarkably good. [01:04:52] I'm with you on that V. [01:04:53] Like it has always been bad. [01:04:55] It's continuously bad. [01:04:58] It's fundamentally bad [01:05:01] because it does not work. [01:05:03] It breaks the number one rule [01:05:05] of any gadget or product, [01:05:06] which is to do the thing [01:05:09] that you're supposed to do [01:05:11] the majority of the time. [01:05:13] But it's just funny. [01:05:14] All right. [01:05:15] So it passes that test too. [01:05:16] Good Lord, are we close [01:05:17] to putting this thing in the Hall of Fame? [01:05:20] But I will warn you both [01:05:21] it's going to fail this test. [01:05:23] Hall of Fame question number three. [01:05:25] Did the clapper change history? [01:05:26] Is there a world [01:05:27] before the clapper [01:05:28] and a world after the clapper? [01:05:30] I mean, the idea is [01:05:31] the answer to this one's no. [01:05:32] I hate to just I hate [01:05:33] to just be honest [01:05:34] about the answer is no. [01:05:35] No, no, no. [01:05:36] Ron, Ron. [01:05:37] Nope. [01:05:38] It's 100% change history. [01:05:41] And that's where [01:05:41] you have to go to the patent record. [01:05:43] And if you look at the number of patents [01:05:46] that cite the clapper, [01:05:49] like it's like 113 of them [01:05:51] and Apple cites the clapper [01:05:55] when it is developing Siri. [01:05:59] So yes, absolutely changed history. [01:06:02] Siri, another famous technological [01:06:05] innovation that we all know [01:06:07] and love for working. [01:06:08] Yeah, yeah. [01:06:09] We're really good at technology [01:06:11] that works on that front. [01:06:13] So that's the clapper's true legacy [01:06:15] is it gave us generations [01:06:17] upon generations of products [01:06:18] that didn't really work. [01:06:19] It gave us a generation [01:06:21] upon generations of product [01:06:22] where the idea is so good [01:06:24] and tantalizing that you want it, [01:06:25] but you just can't make it real. [01:06:27] Well, I mean, it gives us the optimism [01:06:29] that it's going to work one day. [01:06:31] It is going to work. [01:06:32] Come on. [01:06:33] I mean, we're basically saying [01:06:34] its lasting impact is false hope. [01:06:36] But I mean, like if it passes [01:06:41] all three of these questions, [01:06:42] which I think is so intrinsic [01:06:45] to the clapper, it does so by accident. [01:06:47] It's not doing it [01:06:48] from any like point of intent. [01:06:51] It's just accidentally [01:06:53] it falls and trips [01:06:54] and somehow claps its way in. [01:06:56] It's not doing so like with a resounding. [01:06:59] It's not a problem. [01:07:00] I don't want to say it's a problem. [01:07:01] It won't be the it won't be [01:07:02] the only time this ever happens. [01:07:03] But Allison, here is my argument against. [01:07:06] And I think the reason [01:07:08] I don't think it makes it is because [01:07:10] if this thing belonged [01:07:11] in the Virgin History Hall of Fame, [01:07:12] it would have started [01:07:14] some kind of phenomenon. [01:07:16] It would have it would have been [01:07:17] there would have been something better [01:07:19] like it that came out a few years later [01:07:20] because we figured out something new [01:07:22] and somebody would have. [01:07:23] But it's like what actually happened [01:07:24] is this thing was silly and funny [01:07:27] for 15 years and then we started [01:07:30] doing the smart home. [01:07:32] And so I just I don't know. [01:07:33] I don't feel like like did [01:07:34] did this bend the universe a little bit? [01:07:36] Like I just feel like the answer is no. [01:07:37] It was so fun and lovely. [01:07:39] Did it have lasting impact? [01:07:41] It is still being sold. [01:07:43] You can still buy it. [01:07:44] It is. [01:07:45] I mean lasting impact [01:07:46] for something that does not work. [01:07:48] Like I mean, how many things [01:07:49] that don't work, you know, [01:07:52] can be sold for that length of time [01:07:54] and have that many Amazon. [01:07:57] This is a closer argument [01:07:59] than I anticipated. [01:08:02] My initial instinct was no. [01:08:04] I don't know. [01:08:05] I was making a really compelling argument. [01:08:08] But like I said, if it gets in, [01:08:12] it's tripped and fallen its way [01:08:14] without question again. [01:08:15] But that's not a problem, right? [01:08:16] Like all of histories like that. [01:08:18] How many different products [01:08:20] should be in a Hall of Fame [01:08:21] because like, you know, [01:08:22] it was a mistake. [01:08:23] I mean, we've got penicillin [01:08:24] and post-it notes. [01:08:25] Like those are both mistakes. [01:08:26] I think you're [01:08:29] the big three inventions in history. [01:08:31] Penicillin, post-it notes, the clapper. [01:08:35] I think you're like [01:08:37] most compelling argument [01:08:38] is that its patent is actually cited [01:08:41] by things that like I think [01:08:43] that's the most compelling argument [01:08:45] for it having an impact. [01:08:47] But that's because this patent [01:08:48] is like hilariously general. [01:08:50] It's like, what if it could [01:08:50] hear things and do things? [01:08:51] It's like, okay, fair. [01:08:55] I have never done this [01:08:56] in the history of this show yet, [01:08:57] but Allison, you make an [01:08:59] incredibly good case [01:09:00] and I think you're probably right. [01:09:01] But also this thing cannot [01:09:02] make it into the version of [01:09:03] history of Hall of Fame. [01:09:04] I'm so sorry. [01:09:05] It just, it can't. [01:09:06] Why? [01:09:07] It can't. [01:09:08] I have, we cannot. [01:09:09] I mean, your reviews are [01:09:10] going to tank here. [01:09:11] Like all of those clapper users [01:09:13] are going to come back [01:09:15] and haunt you on TikTok [01:09:17] and be like, no, you are wrong. [01:09:19] I look forward to my professional [01:09:21] legacy being I am the wet blanket [01:09:24] who ruined the clapper for everybody. [01:09:26] It's fine. [01:09:27] It'll go hand in hand [01:09:28] with the viral sensation [01:09:30] that is the clapper TikTok [01:09:32] challenge dance that I will [01:09:34] humiliate myself on the internet. [01:09:35] When that becomes the biggest thing [01:09:37] in the history of the internet, [01:09:40] we'll put it into the Hall of Fame. [01:09:41] That's what we need. [01:09:42] We are one viral TikTok challenge away. [01:09:44] Sounds like vindication [01:09:45] is just like one TikTok away. [01:09:47] I agree. [01:09:48] All right. [01:09:49] This feels good. [01:09:49] I accept these terms. [01:09:51] All right. [01:09:52] Thank you both for being here. [01:09:53] This has been so much fun. [01:09:54] What a deeply bizarre thing [01:09:56] we got to spend this time talking about. [01:09:58] But thank you both so much [01:09:59] for being here. [01:09:59] This is incredibly fun. [01:10:00] Allison, super grateful [01:10:02] for your time. [01:10:02] Thank you for being here. [01:10:03] You're welcome. [01:10:04] It's been fun. [01:10:05] All right. [01:10:05] If you want to yell at me [01:10:08] about my decision to unilaterally [01:10:10] keep this thing out of [01:10:10] the version of History Hall of Fame. [01:10:12] If you agree with Allison, [01:10:13] if you have thoughts, [01:10:14] you can always call the [01:10:15] call the hotline 866-411. [01:10:17] Send us emails. [01:10:19] Yell at V on social [01:10:20] about dances that she should do. [01:10:22] And the best way to support [01:10:24] everything that we do here [01:10:24] at The Verge is to subscribe. [01:10:26] TheVerge.com slash subscribe. [01:10:27] Read Allison's column [01:10:28] at IEEE Spectrum. [01:10:29] It's excellent and full of [01:10:30] good version history stuff. [01:10:32] Thank you so much [01:10:33] for watching and listening. [01:10:34] We'll see you next time.