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The drama behind an iconic landline phone

Channel: Version History · Duration: 71:45 · source

[00:00] Way back when, once upon a time, phones were actually mostly for making phone calls. [00:05] And way back then, there was only one phone that you would find in just about everybody's house. [00:10] It was called the Western Electric 500, and it was borderline illegal to have anything else. [00:15] From the Virgin Box media, this is Version History, a show about the best and worst [00:19] and most important products in tech history. [00:22] I'm David Pierce, and today we are talking about AT&T and the Monopoly phone. [00:30] All right, we're back. It's time to talk landlines. [00:42] Joining me in the studio, Eli Patel. [00:44] This is my dream episode. [00:45] This is my whole career wrapped up in this little gadget right here. [00:49] Also with us, joining us remotely, is author and Columbia professor Tim Wu. [00:53] Tim, welcome. [00:54] Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me. I'm also very excited about this topic. [00:57] So you, we should say, one of the reasons you're here is that you wrote a book called [01:02] The Master Switch that is the basis of my research, frankly, for a lot of this episode. [01:07] You also recently wrote a book called The Age of Extraction, which is very good [01:10] and about the internet and is like, there's a lot of this story that bleeds right into that story. [01:16] And I should say, we're here to talk about this phone, the Western Electric 500, [01:19] both on its own merits, but also as a way to get into the history of AT&T and Western Electric [01:24] and the way that this monopoly took over America in a really unusual way. [01:29] And if you've never seen a landline phone, which a remarkable number of people watching [01:34] and listening to this may not have, let me just describe to you what a landline phone in 1950 [01:38] looked like. It's this big brick of plastic that weighs, frankly, more than you think. [01:43] And it has two main things on it. There is this big [01:46] handset that you hold against your ears. There's a microphone and a speaker. [01:50] And then on this one, there is a rotary dial, which is this huge wheel [01:54] that you have to stick your finger in at the right number, spin it all the way around, [01:58] let it go back and then do the next number. It made dialing a phone take six and a half hours. [02:04] And this is what we did for decades. And Tim, you have a Western Electric 500. [02:09] Is this true? You're the proud owner of a landline phone? [02:12] I didn't bring it with me at this exact moment. But yes, I have that phone. [02:16] Why? [02:17] Same one. Well, partially when I was writing the book, [02:20] I was like, I can't just write this thing. I have to live it. [02:23] And partially because I believed some of the AT&T propaganda that the [02:28] quality of the connection would be good. So I wanted it for radio interviews [02:32] back when radio interviews were on the telephone. So yeah, and I just like the way it looks. [02:37] I mean, it is there is really something about like, [02:39] Neil, I encourage you to just pick up this phone and hold it to your head. [02:41] Because there is something astounding about how good it feels in your hand. [02:46] This move where you can pick up the base and walk around with the handset on your ear and [02:52] you're just holding the base, this is power. Whatever this feeling is. [02:56] Pacing back and forth in your office, doing deals. [02:58] Just holding this thing. And then you're like, [03:00] get out of my face. Like, I don't know. We got to bring this back. [03:03] How much heavier is that thing than you remember? [03:07] That's where the power comes from. It's like, this is weighty. [03:10] You're making a decision to hold this thing. [03:12] 100%. Okay, so let's actually [03:14] sort of start the history here, because it turns out we have to start at the Civil War, [03:18] which means we have a fair amount of work to do before we get to this phone. [03:23] When we started this show, I did not expect to tell this many stories about [03:26] the immediate aftermath of the Civil War. But here we are. [03:28] And so the thing that was happening in the Civil War was the telegraph was a huge deal. [03:33] This became a revolution in how people shared information. And in particular, [03:37] for our purposes here, I'm interested in this company called Gray and Barton at the [03:41] very beginning of all of this, which was a manufacturing partner to Western Union, [03:45] which at the time was the telegraph company. For a long time, [03:48] Western Union was the biggest company in America. It was the most important information company [03:52] anywhere. Gray and Barton made a lot of stuff for a lot of companies. [03:55] They were just like a contract manufacturer. But their best business was with Western Union [04:00] and in telegraphs. And in particular, I learned after the Great Chicago Fire of 1871, [04:05] Western Union's headquarters burned down. But Gray and Barton didn't. [04:09] So they just basically leaned on them even harder and they became like a crucial part of the [04:13] telegraph ecosystem. One of the founders of the company, Elisha Gray, I think is how you [04:17] pronounce it. He's the Gray of Gray and Barton decides that he wants to sell his part of the [04:22] company to Western Union. But he also says there's this amazing thing that I've just done. [04:28] I've invented the telephone. He didn't call this at the time. But he was in this [04:34] patent war, it turned out, to invent the telephone. And this becomes this incredibly [04:39] long legal saga that, Tim, you write a fair amount about in the master switch. [04:44] Can you walk us through it a bit? [04:45] Well, I think most of us learned in elementary school that Alexander Graham Bell, [04:52] this kind of eccentric living in an attic, invented the telephone. But if you look a [04:58] little more carefully, the fact is a lot of people invented the telephone all at once. [05:03] One of them being Gray. The Germans to this day believe that they invented the telephone. [05:08] There is another kind of anecdotal account of somebody else inventing a telephone even [05:13] earlier, but not doing anything with it. So there's a lot of people who kind of arrived [05:17] at the same invention point at the same time, which is they realized you could carry voice over [05:23] a wire and then amplify the signals on the other side. It really came down in terms of [05:30] who was, quote, the inventor to the question of who won the patent battle. And at some level, [05:36] who reached the patent office first? There was some of this history as a little anecdote or [05:43] mythical, because I want to say that Bell and AT&T had a pretty effective propaganda department. [05:50] And in fact, history would have been very different if they had lost that patent battle, [05:55] but in the end, they won it. [05:56] Yeah. So this patent becomes the thing that builds AT&T. For decades, it uses this patent [06:05] to win every fight against everybody else who wanted to do this kind of thing. Because I [06:08] think that everybody invented it all at the same time is sort of a constant story in the history [06:13] of science and technology. There are so many things that seem like just an idea whose time [06:18] has come. And the telephone just seems like it was an idea whose time has come. And a bunch [06:22] of people all around the world at roughly the same time came to that idea. I found so many [06:29] salacious allegations in this patent warfare where there's some allegation that Alexander Graham [06:35] Bell's lawyer had some leverage on the patent office so that they got secrets about what was [06:39] in Gray's patent in order to redo their patent. And it becomes this whole patent drama. And at [06:44] the end of all of this legal drama, that becomes a huge piece of what happens here, [06:49] because this fight between Bell and Western Union, which had bought Electra Gray's company, [06:54] and so it picks up this fight on his behalf. Western Union essentially agrees to get out of [07:00] the telephone market. They're like, we don't care. Leave us alone. We're going to go do our thing. [07:05] You do yours. Let's just sort of split the market here. You go build the telephone, [07:09] knock yourself out. And there was this sense of like we actually, they saw it as [07:14] somewhere between an interesting lark maybe for some day if a bunch of things happened [07:20] and kind of a waste of time. And their interest was doing better telegraphs, [07:24] not cannibalizing telegraphs. And they actually saw the telephone in the best case as a problem. [07:29] And so they're like, well, we actually were happy to just get out of the market. [07:31] Yeah. [07:32] So anyway, so at the end of all this, the other thing that happens is Bell buys a majority [07:36] share of Western Electric, which is the company that Gray and Barton had turned into. [07:40] This is the manufacturing arm. So just to clarify, Western Union is the old telegraph company. [07:46] Western Electric used to make parts for Western Union, but now they make parts for Bell. [07:50] Western Electric at this point becomes the sole supplier of Bell's telephones and equipment. [07:56] This becomes a very big deal. This is a small deal at the time because Bell is still a new [08:00] company. It's growing fast. There's a sense that this is onto something, but this becomes [08:05] an enormous deal. Western still made stuff for other companies, but over time it becomes [08:09] basically the supplier to AT&T. These two things are not the same company, but boy, [08:15] are they the same company, which again becomes very much the story of AT&T. [08:19] This is a pattern that exists across the telecom industry. Samsung is the preferred supplier [08:25] to so many cell carriers today. There was a time when LG made every phone for a handful [08:31] of cell carriers. Nokia was the supplier. Blackberry, famously in Verizon, [08:34] had this kind of relationship. Only recently has that changed. [08:38] Okay, so Tim, here I want you to do something impossible, which is just absolutely blast [08:43] through about 50 years of history. Walk us through just very quickly how we get from [08:48] Bell Labs Upstart to AT&T, absolutely utterly dominant player in telephony in the course of [08:55] just a few decades. Okay, so believe it or not, it turned out the telephone was popular. [09:00] And people thought this thing is pretty cool. Eventually Bell's patent expired and there [09:09] came a period that could only be compared to like the 1990s internet where everyone was starting [09:16] a phone company. There were suddenly thousands of phone companies across the United States. [09:21] And people were using all kinds of wire, like there's vaguely anecdotal accounts of [09:26] people using like barbed wire fences to rig parts of their phone networks together. So the idea was [09:33] young man, go west and build a phone network. And so there they're all going. And there was this [09:38] period of extraordinary both opportunity, hope, you know, interesting inventions, different ideas, [09:48] but also a lot of chaos and non-interconnected networks. Because obviously, a phone is a [09:56] network, its value is how many people are on it. At some point, Bell got new leadership, [10:02] a man named Theodore Vail. He was a fellow who kind of took Theodore Roosevelt as his role model, [10:09] although he probably thought he was better than Theodore Roosevelt. He was like the big man, [10:14] the like empire building, the visionary kind of person. And he said something along the lines [10:21] that like America needs one phone network. And this was his one network philosophy. And so [10:30] in service that vision, he commenced what can only be described as industrial warfare, [10:35] actually not entirely unlike John Rockefeller, who's another figure, you know, active in this era. [10:43] He went to every place and convinced the independence to either sell to him, [10:49] the independent phone manufacturers, join up with him on some kind of turns or face their [10:54] destruction. There's at least one account. Now, people 19th century, as I said, there's a lot of [10:59] propaganda on both sides. But there are at least stories of Bell, you know, demanding everyone [11:06] sell out to them, join the Bell network, and those that refuse have their equipment [11:11] put in the middle of town and lit a fire to giant bonfire. As a horrible lesson for all those [11:18] who resist the Bell system. So he had a kind of a simple message. He said, we're better together, [11:23] you know, join me, maybe be bought by me, certainly interconnect on my terms and join the one system. [11:30] So this spreads. Bell begins to invest heavily in long distance, which is obviously an important [11:38] technology. And it's also pretty expensive and hard for all of these little barbed wire [11:44] phone companies to match. Yeah, although to their credit, you know, some of them are smaller, [11:51] some of them are more efficient. In a way, they could coexist if they agreed to interconnect, [11:57] you know, and in those days, interconnect is a physical wire that, you know, switches [12:02] between them. But yes, there's a lot going on. Important here is you have AT&T, [12:08] the growing monopoly, and eventually this attracts the attention of the Justice Department, [12:12] because then and to some degree now, the idea of of attacking your competitors, emerging them [12:22] into a giant trust is considered to violate the Sherman Act. So the Taft administration begins [12:29] an investigation after Roosevelt and pre Wilson, the Taft administration, which actually is the [12:36] most aggressive antitrust administration, begins an investigation of AT&T for the [12:42] crime of monopolization. And, you know, they begin the lawsuit, the two parties are, [12:49] are, you know, getting ready for a big fight. And at some point, this is in the 1910s, [12:57] they begin to negotiate, and they announce a deal, which is known as the Kingsbury commitment. [13:04] And the deal roughly goes like this. Bell will interconnect with everybody. So on its side, [13:12] it's going to agree to support everybody. But sort of more or less subtly, the United States agrees [13:21] that Bell will be the monopoly, regulated monopoly for the United States. So we strike this this [13:28] deal. At the time, I should say all the independent phone companies see it as a victory, [13:36] because now they have interconnection. But what they don't fully realize is that the gem or the [13:42] idea of one monopoly for the nation has one out. And, you know, there is some logic to the idea [13:49] that one network makes more sense than 1000 networks. Right. That is, to me, the most [13:55] interesting thing about this growth story. And I felt it doing the research. I felt it in your [14:00] book, Tim, you go through and it's like, okay, AT&T is waging industrial warfare. It is this [14:04] ruthless, growth oriented company trying to connect everybody. And then you listen to [14:09] Theodore Vail be like, well, actually, this whole thing is better if we're all on one network, [14:12] and we can all talk to each other. And you're like, oh, crap, you're right. [14:15] He was super right. [14:16] And Eli, you're Mr. Free Market Competition over here. What do you make of all of this? [14:21] I am always struck by the character of Theodore Vail, of Rockefeller, of Carnegie, who all were [14:30] brash, extremely aggressive monopolists. I mean, they're the monopoly guys. [14:35] Yeah, literally. [14:36] That's who they are. And at the end, they all accepted the notion that they should run [14:42] regulated monopolies. And I think Vail makes that case pretty directly to the government in the [14:47] context of all this antitrust battle. He says, you can be in charge of this network, [14:51] but I have to build it. I will accept your price controls on this network. I will accept [14:57] what we would come to call common carrier rules, where I have to connect to everyone, [15:02] and I can't monkey with what's going across the network. You look at a telecom company today, [15:07] and the idea that the government can tell them anything to do with their network is out the [15:11] window. That is battle after battle. And so there's just this literal character of these [15:18] figures. There's something about their patriotism that actually balanced out their viciousness. [15:27] And that's the argument they made so often. [15:30] Yeah, there's a real sense of noblesse obligée that I think is important here. I mean, [15:35] he's an industrialist Vail, and AT&T is a rapacious company. But he comes and basically speaks to [15:43] the public, to Congress, to the administration, and says, I shall serve as a public servant. [15:50] I agree and will kit myself to connect every American at low cost. I accept rate regulation. [15:58] I accept being more or less like the post office in many ways. At that time, [16:03] the post office was admired for its efficiency, I should point out. And so he undertakes these [16:11] duties. He offers a big deal, and he said, we will all be better together. And I think that is [16:17] the seed of the age of regulated monopoly, which ends up lasting roughly 70 years. [16:24] Yeah. So OK, so that was an excellent catch up, by the way. Good job, Tim. [16:28] So this brings us to this enlightened monopoly phase for AT&T, which is the phrase that is used [16:35] kind of all over. AT&T was basically given the ability to do whatever it wants. And then in 1921, [16:41] there's this thing called the Willis Graham Act that essentially just tells AT&T that it's cool. [16:46] Don't worry about it. We have all these other monopoly rules. You are exempt from them, [16:50] no problem. And also, by the way, the Kingsbury commitment, which AT&T made, [16:54] big win for all of the little companies that didn't have to risk dying. So this works for [17:00] everybody for a long time. And the network continues to grow. AT&T continues to become [17:06] this massively giant company. So we go through the First World War, we go through the Depression, [17:12] we go through the Second World War. And then there are just a lot of political changes during [17:16] that time. But then we get to the late 40s, and the US government sues AT&T again. [17:23] Oh, we're just doing monopoly stuff again. And in this case, the goal is to separate AT&T from [17:30] Western Electric. This is where we start to get into landline phones. Because what the government [17:36] wanted was to force AT&T to buy from other manufacturers. AT&T obviously was very happy to [17:41] buy from its own subsidiary. And to your point about a lot of these regulations, there was [17:45] an understanding that you could regulate the cost of service by regulating the cost of service. [17:52] But actually, AT&T had a bunch of other ways to make as much money as it wanted. And one of them [17:57] is by controlling the hardware, by doing the price of the hardware, the services, the leasing fees, [18:02] like people didn't own their phones, you didn't buy a phone, you leased one from AT&T, [18:07] which is like just a bonkers thing to think about. But it's also kind of what we all do [18:11] with our iPhones now, to some extent. You can't kill AT&T. We've tried so many times. [18:16] It will come back in exactly the same form. This idea just never goes away. So at the time, [18:21] again, this is in the late 1940s, just some of the numbers I found, the government alleged that [18:26] Western Electric manufactures and sells more than 90% of all telephones, telephone apparatus, [18:30] and equipment sold in the United States. And that a substantial part of the remaining 10% [18:34] is produced under the direct control of Western Electric. This is the only company making phones, [18:39] for all intents and purposes. And it is wholly owned by AT&T. [18:42] I just want to point out, you can look at history through a variety of planets. [18:47] There was a lot going on between 1910 and 1940, I would say. There were plenty of [18:53] priorities for the nation as a whole to pay attention to and rank higher than the phone [18:58] system. There was almost zero innovation in the phone system during the time of AT&T's monopoly. [19:04] Except it grew. [19:05] Except it grew, which is a huge innovation, obviously very important. [19:08] But the experience of making phone calls pretty much stagnated. Tim, I can't think of a particularly [19:15] meaningful upgrade in that 30-year period, because the monopoly was like, we're going to run the [19:20] monopoly and extract our profits. And growth is the thing that we've promised you, so there will [19:25] be growth. But user experience is not a thing that we need to compete on, so we will stop. [19:30] The thing is, inside an industry, if you talk to any industry, they're always convinced that [19:35] they're extremely innovative. It's just they measure it differently, internally. [19:40] You know, so there was one big innovation during that period, which is they got rid of [19:44] operators, human operators, and replaced them with electric switching. So that was one. [19:50] But you know what I mean? Like the product was the same. But I'm disagreeing you. [19:54] I'm just amazed at the ability of any industry to be convinced that they have made enormous [19:58] strides. Like sometimes I talk to people in the airplane industry and I say, you know, [20:02] it's basically the same 50 years. So like, what are you talking about? And then they talk [20:05] about a whole bunch of things that no one on the outside experiences as real changes. [20:09] And all of them, I would point out, even in the case of the operators, is reducing labor costs. [20:13] Yep. But like, Tim, what you're saying, this is, I do think you're right, that that probably [20:18] counts as a meaningful innovation. The idea of like you giving people this kind of control. It [20:23] reduced labor costs and made things a lot easier for AT&T because you didn't have to have these [20:27] centralized offices connecting people, especially as the networks got bigger, the operator system [20:31] became like huge and complicated. And being able to just let people dial on to the network [20:36] was actually really valuable to everybody. But the other thing that's happening [20:39] here is that AT&T is actually going out of its way to prevent anyone else [20:43] from doing any kind of innovation. Tim, you covered the story of the hush-o-phone. [20:47] Do you remember the story of the hush-o-phone? Oh, yes, I do very, very well. So you're right. [20:53] AT&T, you know, in some ways, as we've sort of suggested, they're an admirable company and [20:59] that I wanted, and I want to point that out in some ways. You know, it's true that you were not [21:03] improving the product at all, but they were trying to get the product to everybody. [21:07] You know, sometimes I can't, I must confess, like anything you spend a lot of time with, [21:11] you end up with a mixed, you know, some admiration. And AT&T monopoly in some ways reminds me of the [21:17] Roman Empire, in the sense that like I do not approve of feeding people the lions or, [21:22] you know, gladiator contests or massacring villagers. But there is still something mighty [21:27] and exciting about building roads to every part of Europe. So I have the same kind of feelings [21:31] about AT&T. One of the things I will say about AT&T is it was very controlling. They had the [21:38] idea that they had to own every part of their system from top to bottom. And that meant you [21:46] should not attach your own telephones. One thing that people may not realize, there was not a [21:50] phone jack back then. It was just a wire coming out of the wall, right? So it wasn't like, [21:54] if you wanted to hit up your own phone, you needed to be able to, you know, splice wires [21:59] or something like that. Anyway, a bunch of people in the 1950s invented something called [22:08] the hush-a-phone. And the hush-a-phone was this plastic device that fit over the receiver and [22:16] made it so that people around you were not bothered by your phone calls, if that makes sense. [22:22] It really is just a gigantic piece of plastic. [22:24] This big piece of plastic that came out was actually originally invented in the 1920s. [22:29] They did an advanced version of it. They consulted with this fellow named Leo Brannock at MIT, [22:35] who was an expert on acoustics. He later went on to help invent the internet. They invented this [22:41] sort of improved model. And Bell freaked out and said, we cannot have foreign attachments [22:48] on our network. They went and they began threatening that they would disconnect the [22:54] service. So they didn't have the power to sue people, but they did have the power to threaten [22:58] to disconnect the service of anyone who used this foreign attachment. And ultimately, it went to [23:06] suit the FCC, you know, first one along and they went back and forth. So grudgingly, [23:12] they ended up having a lawsuit over whether a hearing over whether the hush-a-phone actually [23:18] interfered with phone communications. And ultimately, it didn't. And it all went all the [23:26] way to the DC circuit. And it came down ultimately to kind of a landmark decision of the DC circuit [23:32] where they said, an unwarranted interference with the telephone subscribers write reasonably to use [23:38] the telephone in ways which are privately beneficial without being publicly detrimental [23:42] can't be interfered with. So AT&T finally had a little bit of pushback on their [23:47] entirely encompassing control freak nature. Yeah, but that takes a while. Crucially, [23:52] that does take a long time. And it about ruins the life of the hush-a-phone creators [23:58] in trying to do this. But they did, they decided basically, we have to fight this [24:01] fight all the way out because we think it's important. And they do eventually win their day [24:06] in court, but it takes them a long time and an awful lot of money. And in that space, [24:12] actually, while AT&T is fighting this fight, is when this phone comes out. And so let's get [24:16] to this phone. But first, let's take a break. Then we're going to talk some hardware. We'll [24:19] be right back. All right, we're back. Let's talk about a designer named Henry Dreyfuss, [24:28] who is somebody I had never heard of before, but turns out to be a bit of a legend in the [24:32] design world. So this guy, he's a New York guy. He's a designer. He works on Broadway plays. [24:37] He eventually opens a firm to do industrial design and ends up designing some truly [24:43] iconic stuff. This guy is in the 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s doing work. And his big idea [24:49] is what if we made things that were human-centric? What if the design was useful [24:54] to people and also looked nice? And so he ends up designing a bunch of truly iconic [25:00] things. One of them is this vacuum called the Hoover 150. One of the first [25:04] vacuums to have basically be all contained like this and cleaner and simpler and less designed. [25:11] He also designs the Honeywell T87 thermostat, which is the iconic shadow of a thermostat. [25:18] So this guy is doing big, important work. And he eventually, at the end of all this, [25:26] goes to work for AT&T. So at this point, in the 1930s, Bell Labs had released a phone called the [25:32] Western Electric 300. It's of a bit of an icon in the annals of landline phones. They're making [25:37] this transition away from the old, they called them candlestick phones, which is, it was the, [25:42] those are the two pieces. You hold the one up to your ear and the other one down here [25:45] when, as you talk into it, that had been the design of phones for forever. And right before [25:51] the Great Depression, Bell Labs had done this big design reboot of all of its phones. [25:57] There was still a second box, like you were talking about, there's the phone on the desk, [26:00] and then there's a thing stuck to the wall, basically, that is where a lot of the actual [26:05] equipment is, and also is how you connect to the network. The wars happen, and the Great [26:09] Depression happens, and so there's this giant pause in a lot of development. But then this [26:13] stuff comes like roaring back in the 30s and into the 40s. And again, Tim, like you were [26:19] saying earlier about kind of ideas all happening at once, everybody thinking about this kind of device [26:24] around the world, right, because AT&T is not the only company in the world doing telephony. [26:29] Everybody starts to think about, you know, plastics, which are becoming a thing, and new [26:33] kinds of transmitters, and new things are being cheap to manufacture. So everybody starts [26:38] consolidating on this idea of like, how do we make something a little smaller, a little simpler, [26:43] and how do we put it all into one device, rather than the phone being sort of this like big, [26:48] wacky system that lives in your house. They're like, how do we just make it a thing? The other [26:52] thing about the Western Electric 300 was that it was like really, really, really nice to hold. [26:57] Bell Labs and others had done a lot of ergonomics research, and people were starting to make more [27:02] and longer phone calls. So the idea of like making this a nice experience was really important. [27:06] So they're like, how do we make this more and more pleasant? So they come up with a bunch of [27:11] little things like the fact that when you pick it up, the speaker actually covers most of your [27:16] ear, but it has this sort of concave thing, so that it actually puts a cup around your [27:20] ear that it makes the sound better. It puts your mouth right on the microphone by design, [27:25] like you kind of can't put the microphone anywhere else. So that makes it sound better. [27:28] They understood the phone as a physical object for the first time, which I think is really cool. [27:32] This is like the end of doing it because it is what the technology requires and into like, [27:38] actually, we have a bunch of options. How do we make this a lifestyle object? [27:43] Which I think is very cool and leads to a lot of these changes. [27:47] If you go all the way back on AT&T's YouTube channel, a thing that I had occasion to do, [27:53] they uploaded a bunch of like old archival, basically infomercials. Like AT&T would make [27:58] these long movies explaining to people how things would work, and they would play them at the [28:01] beginning of like movie theater movies to help people understand how phones worked. [28:05] Can I just play you a couple of them to give you a sense of like what innovation [28:08] looked like at this time? It's delightful. [28:10] For convenience in dialing, the letters go around the dial in alphabetical order, [28:16] and the numbers are in numerical order from one to nine and all, and in the center of the dial [28:25] appears the number of the telephone you are using. With dial service, telephone numbers [28:31] consist of a central office name and five numbers, like this, main two, 997-0. [28:40] This is like there was a time not that long ago that you had to explain somebody that the [28:44] numbers go up in order. Do you know what I mean? [28:47] It's probably a straight line from here to those first videos that Apple produced about the iPhone. [28:51] Yes. [28:51] Where they're like, here's how you unlock it. [28:53] Very much so. [28:54] We've gotten away from this. [28:55] Yeah. So in 1946, is all this is going on, AT&T starts working with Henry Dreyfuss' company, [29:01] they spend a couple of years sketching ideas, they test with customers, and eventually this [29:06] thing starts to hit in 1949. This is the Western Electric 500. This is a big, giant deal of a [29:14] device, and they launch it as such. They understand that they have done something [29:19] important and powerful, and there are a bunch of new things inside of this. [29:24] So like one way I would think about it is you have the base plate inside of the phone. [29:30] There's a lot of really complicated mechanics. And actually, we sent Andrew Marino, our producer, [29:34] to the Long Island Telephone Museum, where there are actual honest to God, old phone experts, [29:39] who did a much better job of explaining it. So let me just play this video that Andrew made for us. [29:47] Okay, I'm here at the Long Island Telephone Museum, and I'm here with the curator historian, [29:51] John Stallone. Hi, John. [29:53] Hi, how are you? [29:53] I'm great. [29:54] Welcome. [29:55] We are going to take a demo look at the Western Electric 500. We're going to [30:00] actually open one up and take a look and see how it all works. [30:02] Exactly. All of the inner workings and how the magic occurs. [30:05] Okay, great. [30:11] So in 1954, it's a huge, pivotal year for the telephone company. This is the first time [30:16] that the 500 set now is available in a variety of eight different colors. [30:20] We have a pink one in our office, actually. [30:22] Very nice. A pink one is rare. It would have been special ordered. [30:26] Oh, okay, cool. [30:27] This new type of telephone has a thing called a varistor inside of it. [30:31] So the varistor is a combination of two words. It's a varying resistor. And this now allows [30:38] that phone to be placed at any distance from the central office, whether it's close, where it would [30:44] have a more powerful current coming to it, or the further away, where it would have a less [30:48] powerful current from it. And normally when you're making a call or somebody would bang [30:53] the phone down and hang up on you, you'd hear that loud click in your ear. That [30:57] varistor prevented that from happening. It also now for the very first time, [31:01] allows you to make your ringer louder or lower. [31:05] Can we also talk about the plug here? [31:07] In 1954, you could actually move your phone about your house wherever you might want it. [31:13] If you wanted an outdoor jack on your patio, you were able to have that installed and then [31:18] take your phone from inside and plug it into this little four prong jack on the outside. [31:23] Prior to that, your phone was hardwired to the wall. [31:25] Right. [31:31] So strangely enough, if you had one of these, even back in those days, you'd be able to [31:36] unscrew it very simply from underneath two screws. But now we're going to uncover and look on the [31:43] inside of all where all the magic happens. So we spoke about the bell earlier. And here's where [31:50] you could be able to actually see it moving closer and further away from where the clapper [31:54] is that's in the center there. [31:56] Just to pause really fast. This is such a perfect example of like the simplicity of [32:00] the system you're talking about. It's just how far are the bells from each other? [32:03] Yeah, they found so many like little tiny ingenious things to do here [32:07] that make all of this sort of complicated stuff actually unbelievably simple. [32:11] Yes. And they can just fix it. [32:13] Yeah, it's very clever. [32:14] It's very good. [32:14] This is a giant magnet. And basically what's happening when the phone rings [32:19] 90 volts AC is being applied across the line. And it's exciting this magnet [32:25] where it's actually changing polarity to make that ringer be pulled back and forth. [32:33] Right. And so that's the only way it's getting powers through the phone line, correct? [32:37] It's actually coming through the regular wire that's coming in from the outside. [32:41] The telephone works off of a thing called negative 48 volts DC. [32:46] The ringer actually works off of 90 volts AC. [32:49] Okay. So how does that get power then? [32:52] So that power is coming from the central office with a big generator that was inside there, [32:57] a ringing generator. And when you were going to get a call, [33:00] it would send that ringing current across the line, excites the ringer. [33:04] Now you're hearing. [33:06] Okay. So at that point, the circuits closed. This is your switch hook. [33:10] You're going to, it's actually open and you pick it up. [33:12] So yeah, when you pick up the phone, this, yeah, [33:15] it's closed then and then boom, you're answering your call. [33:18] Hello. Who's there? [33:20] Can you walk through the dialing mechanism? [33:22] So I didn't disconnect it, but I could show it to you. [33:25] Actually, you could do a little work here and take this off. [33:29] All right. So now we can kind of see the back of the dial. [33:35] So every time you're making a call, this governor is spinning, [33:39] creating an opening closing of the circuit, [33:42] creating pulses for each number that correlates to what you spin. [33:46] So if you were to do nine, of course, it would open and close the circuit nine times. [33:52] If you go to zero, that's 10. So that would be 10 times opening, closing every time. [33:58] The magic that happens behind the scenes after you spin that little wheel on your phone [34:03] is translated all the way back to the central office, [34:06] a building that's approximately a quarter a mile away from probably where your home is. [34:11] And when you pick up your phone and you're dialing your number, [34:14] this is going to register in the central office the number. [34:19] So when we saw the clicks in the phone, it's kind of [34:23] relaying that same signal to here. [34:26] So every time that those contacts open and close, [34:29] it's registering a click inside the central office. [34:33] Until you reach the number of clicks for your telephone number, seven numbers. [34:37] At that point, you're calling within the scene area of your central office. [34:42] And now it's going to translate it to the phone that needs to be getting ringed. [34:47] So now the phone's ringing at the other location. [34:49] You hear that ring, you pick up the phone, and now you're able to have your conversation. [34:54] When you hang up, it resets and it waits for the next time or the next person [34:59] who needs that line finder to be able to go and make the next call. [35:06] Well, thank you, John. [35:07] I really appreciate it. [35:08] Yeah, this was so fun. [35:10] I learned so much. [35:11] Back to you, David. [35:12] Say hi to David. [35:13] Hi, David. [35:15] Great, thank you. [35:19] First of all, John is my hero. [35:20] That dude rules. [35:22] I aspire to that kind of knowledge about literally anything. [35:25] But I think there's so much of that that is exactly this thing [35:28] that we've been talking about that, A, it's this whole system that is the point. [35:33] Tim, you and Neil, I've both been talking about the Bell system. [35:37] This is the system. [35:38] It's all those parts. [35:39] It's all mechanical. [35:41] It's a big mechanical system, and it all has to work together exactly right. [35:44] And I think that's where their weirdo control freak nature came from. [35:47] There's no slack in this system. [35:49] You can just knock the thing out of alignment, and then the phone's broken. [35:52] And you can see how you would make a compelling argument that, [35:55] actually, if we let somebody else into this system, they'll screw it up. [35:58] It is very complicated and put together. [36:00] But also, they should have let it work. [36:03] So all of this stuff is, some of it is new, and some of it is just vast [36:07] improvements over how all of this stuff works. [36:10] The fact that you can control the volume, the fact that you can, [36:13] like you were doing earlier, you can pick it up and carry it around, [36:15] is meaningful to people's experience with these phones. [36:18] This becomes, I think, crucial to how people think about [36:21] their relationship with their phones for decades. [36:24] Like, this is, in so many ways, the iconic moment of... [36:28] Phones were already mainstream, but this changes people's [36:31] relationship to them in a way that I'm still wrapping my head around. [36:34] Because this is the phone in so many ways. [36:38] Yeah, it is the picture of a phone. [36:39] It was the icon of a phone on cell phones for years and years and years. [36:43] The idea that you would have more than one of them in your house [36:46] that arrived with this device. [36:48] The idea that it's in colors, and that it is a consumer object [36:52] made of plastic. [36:54] I mean, it really just changed everyone's relationship [36:56] with the phone in serious ways. [36:57] They fixed a bunch of the things in it to make it more serviceable. [37:01] A huge part of the goal of all of this for AT&T [37:04] is to make these phones easier to service. [37:06] Because this is all, still at this point, kind of brittle technology. [37:10] Yeah. [37:10] And so they're spending a lot of... [37:11] And it's very mechanical. [37:12] Right. [37:12] And so they're spending a lot of money and a lot of time, [37:14] like, going to people's houses. [37:16] And they have these huge repair shops that people are repairing the phones in. [37:19] This thing is a lot of work, so anything they can do to make it easier [37:22] to get inside and fix is a huge deal. [37:25] So this one, you can literally just lift this cover off [37:28] with a couple of screws and see all of the internals right there. [37:31] And that's a big deal, right? [37:32] There's a real repairability aspect to the thing. [37:34] There are a couple of other little design things [37:36] I just want to point out. [37:37] One of them is that on the dial here, [37:39] before the numbers had been inside of the dial, [37:42] so when you would put your finger in, it would obscure the numbers. [37:45] So it was actually hard to see. [37:46] So on this one, they put the numbers around the outside [37:50] and then they're actually part of the plastic. [37:52] But then in testing, they discovered that people didn't know [37:54] where to put their fingers anymore. [37:56] So they put these dots inside in order to just... [38:00] Those are places for your finger to land [38:03] because people didn't know where to actually put the thing [38:06] because it was hard to navigate from the number to the circle. [38:10] I want to play maybe the most iconic and most lasting thing [38:14] that happened from this device, which is Travis, our producer. [38:17] Can you call this phone? [38:20] Oh, it's good. [38:21] Oh, it's good. [38:22] I cannot describe to you how visceral reaction [38:26] I have to that ring. [38:27] And it's mechanical. [38:28] There's a bell in there that's being struck by a striker [38:31] and it's vibrating the table. [38:33] It's so good. [38:34] Where does that take both of you? [38:36] I just immediately become a kid again. [38:39] I'm home in the 80s and I'm running down the stairs [38:41] because the phone was in the kitchen, right? [38:42] And again, this is like, [38:44] eventually there are more phones in the house [38:46] and this stops being such a thing, [38:48] but that sound is run to the kitchen. [38:49] Yep, same. [38:50] Can I just say the word operator here, [38:52] print it on the side. [38:53] It's so jaunty. [38:53] Like this thing has whimsy to it. [38:55] It's good. [38:56] It's true. [38:57] It's lovely. [38:57] You know, kind of reminds me design wise, [39:00] a little bit of like the Porsche 911. [39:02] Yeah. [39:02] Or the Volkswagen bug. [39:04] It has kind of a, you know, it's roughly the same era, [39:07] you know, a kind of rounded design that really lasted [39:11] and became classic. [39:12] Yeah, it's got that jet age feel, right? [39:14] Where we're entering and we're going to streamline everything. [39:17] Totally. [39:17] We're going to cut through the water with the greatest of ease. [39:19] A lot of rounded corners. [39:21] Yeah, I think there's also a case to be made [39:22] that this was the best sounding phone of all time. [39:25] Like it's useful to remember, [39:27] for many people watching and listening to this, [39:29] you've never heard a good sounding phone call. [39:31] Never. [39:31] Like it's honestly true, [39:33] but there was a long time where phone calls sounded awesome. [39:36] Yeah. [39:36] We had these super high fidelity lines [39:38] that were able to carry almost uncompressed speech. [39:41] Like it sounded amazing. [39:43] And there was something meaningfully, [39:46] like emotionally different about a phone call. [39:48] The phone companies used to compete on the quality [39:50] of their phone calls. [39:52] This has long since gone. [39:53] Yeah. [39:54] I mean, I guess that's the thing about the story [39:56] of innovation, which, you know, I've been very critical [39:58] of AT&T, but to give them their credit, [40:01] they just in some ways innovate in different ways. [40:04] Like they innovated in terms of trying [40:06] to have the perfect, perfect like phone quality [40:10] and the perfect reliability. [40:12] Like the big deal for them was that every time [40:14] you picked up the phone, you'd get a dial tone. [40:16] You know, not like nine out of 10 times or five. [40:20] And, you know, on our current, even our current networks [40:22] pretty advanced, occasionally a phone call just fails. [40:25] And to them that was, you know, that should never happen. [40:28] Right. [40:28] So they were going for a different ideal. [40:30] Let's just put it that way. [40:31] Well, it's actually, it's an interesting incentive matchup, [40:34] right? Because if you're, if you're AT&T [40:36] and you have, and you're Western Electric, [40:38] because of the way your business works, [40:39] because you lease these phones to people, [40:41] every one of their incentives was to make these things [40:44] awesome and last forever. [40:46] Yep. [40:46] Because it was, it was much cheaper in the long run [40:49] for them to do that than to make crappy things that broke. [40:52] Like if they could make great things that didn't break, [40:54] they would ultimately be vastly more successful. [40:56] Because they were collecting rent forever. [40:58] Right. Which is like, feel about that however you want. [41:00] But it did incentivize them to make the phone great. [41:02] And they did. [41:03] Yes. [41:03] Tim, politically and business wise, [41:08] what's happening through this phase, right? [41:10] Is this phase of the Western Electric 500 [41:13] also sort of the dawn of the end of the enlightened [41:17] monopoly of AT&T here? [41:18] That period of the 1950s is sort of remembered, [41:21] I think by people, you know, sort of man-men [41:24] kind of era, a lot of big business. [41:26] But it was also the most active period of antitrust [41:30] enforcement, maybe in US histories, 50s and 60s. [41:33] They were extremely aggressive. [41:36] And one of the reasons is they were reacting to World War II. [41:40] And the sense was that the Nazis and the Japanese empire [41:43] had been built on the back of monopoly. [41:46] And there was a lot of worry that, you know, [41:48] somehow monopoly and over-monopolization of industry [41:51] was going to start to bleed into fascism in the United States [41:55] in some way. [41:56] And so there's this aggressive thing. [41:58] And it spills over into AT&T. [42:01] And they say, hey, we have this company. [42:04] It's huge. [42:04] It's really powerful. [42:05] It's politically connected. [42:07] They're sort of dangerous. [42:09] Let's take a run at them. [42:10] This is the Justice Department talking in the 50s. [42:13] And, you know, this is crazy. [42:15] How is it that they own the Western Electric Company? [42:19] Those obviously could be two different companies. [42:21] Around the same time, they had just broken up [42:23] the film industry into producers and theaters. [42:28] They said, you know, film, they just changed the film industry [42:32] so that the big studios couldn't own everything [42:36] in a vertically integrated fashion. [42:37] So they took a run at it. [42:39] And, you know, I think this is one of the most important periods [42:41] in US technological history, period. [42:44] Not just this telephone. [42:46] Because the Justice Department takes a big run at AT&T. [42:50] They have them on the ropes. [42:51] They're going to break them up. [42:52] And in those days, breakups were relatively common. [42:56] And AT&T pleads and frankly gets the Defense Department [43:00] involved in this whole decision-making [43:03] in the federal government. [43:04] And the Defense Department says, you can't break up AT&T. [43:07] They're too important to national defense. [43:09] They help us operate our nuclear laboratories. [43:11] They do the early warning system against Soviet missiles. [43:15] Spare them. [43:17] So they intervene. [43:18] And they arrive at this agreement, which, as I keep saying, [43:22] might be one of the most consequential [43:24] for US tech history, the 1956 consent decree. [43:28] Because in that, AT&T agrees to stay out forever of computing. [43:35] They're like, let us have our monopoly. [43:39] Let us, you know, continue to provide wonderful service [43:42] for the American people and to own everything. [43:45] But allow us to keep, we'll stay out of everything but telephony. [43:50] And the other most important thing is they force them [43:52] to license every single patent they own for free. [43:55] And one of those patents is the transistor patent. [43:58] And a whole bunch of people then quit Bell Labs, AT&T, [44:02] and start transistor companies, including Shockley [44:06] and a few others, eventually Intel. [44:08] And so there's two industries that are born [44:11] in that exact period in this fight over the telephone. [44:14] The US computing industry gets a big boost [44:16] by getting the phone company out. [44:18] So IBM gets its real start. [44:20] And the US semiconductors industry. [44:22] So that little phone on your desk has some role [44:26] in birthing two of the most important US industries. [44:31] And actually some of the guys in that patent [44:34] end up writing Unix. [44:35] There's a whole bunch of things to be linked [44:37] just to that moment and just to that agreement [44:39] where they let Bell keep his telephone [44:41] but freeze up the rest of the tech world. [44:44] Are we going to talk about Carderphone? [44:45] I want Tim to talk about Carderphone before I start. [44:47] It's like the heart of the whole game to me. [44:49] Amazing about this device and Tim has mentioned [44:51] several times now is it's hardwired into the network. [44:54] Well, eventually you just want to plug a modem directly [44:56] into the phone network. [44:57] Eventually we get to RJ11 connectors [45:00] and we're plugging all kinds of devices. [45:01] We have 1980s cordless phones. [45:04] All of that was the fight. [45:07] When I think about the history of this device [45:10] what undid it was an ecosystem of other phones [45:14] that AT&T had to be forced into allowing [45:18] to connect to their network. [45:19] And once they were forced into allowing other phones [45:22] they had to be forced into modems. [45:24] And then it's all over. [45:26] And that's a decision, right? [45:27] Tim, that's a fight. [45:28] Can you talk about that fight? [45:29] Yeah, sure. [45:30] So it was actually similar to the hush-a-phone fight [45:33] but with longer lasting consequences. [45:35] So Carderphone made an acoustic coupler [45:38] that connected to a radio, which was a way of connecting [45:43] the phone to the radio network. [45:45] AT&T, as usual, freaked out and said, [45:49] that's a foreign attachment. [45:50] It's dangerous to our network. [45:53] It cannot be allowed. [45:54] And Carderphone had enough resources [45:57] and times were changing. [46:00] There it is. [46:00] And they thought it out. [46:03] And it went all the way to the DC circuit. [46:06] The FCC now had switched sides [46:09] and was on the side of the innovators. [46:12] And so eventually through a court order by the DC circuit [46:17] AT&T was forced to acknowledge the possibility [46:21] of things connecting to its network. [46:23] Now that sets into event a whole string of events [46:26] that I think are very important. [46:28] The FCC at this point is starting to wonder [46:32] about this paradigm of regulated monopoly [46:35] and thinking that, well, maybe we can keep the monopoly [46:38] but allow a little bit of competition in long distance [46:43] and a little bit of competition on the handset [46:46] or the attachment side. [46:48] And they do something pretty radical [46:50] but with extraordinarily long lasting consequences, [46:53] which is they come up with a rule [46:55] that compels AT&T to install phone jacks in people's houses. [46:59] Right. [47:00] You know, the phone jack is one of those things [47:02] in daily life along with electric plug [47:04] that is so radically essential to the history of technology [47:09] that it's surprising we don't wonder at it more often. [47:12] Because think of what it is. [47:15] It is an interconnection and interface [47:18] that costs no money to connect with [47:21] and is universal and totally permissionless. [47:25] So suddenly people can plug stuff in the mid-70s [47:29] into this phone jack. [47:31] And, you know, it doesn't spread everywhere at once. [47:33] That is what in some ways sets off the modern telecom revolution [47:38] along with long distance and the first net neutrality rules. [47:41] And it comes from just this, you know, humble device. [47:44] And if I'll say one more thing about it, [47:47] AT&T, they're like this grumpy old man at this point [47:51] who just keeps doubling down [47:54] because they go on a tear. [47:56] And even though they're forced to have this phone jack, [47:58] they still insist that it's a danger to the phone network. [48:02] I had a judge I worked for, Richard Posner, [48:07] who went to consult for AT&T during this time. [48:11] And they hired him to try to prove [48:13] that all these attachments were going to be a danger [48:15] to the AT&T system. [48:17] And he said, well, what's it going to be? [48:20] And they said, well, you know, [48:23] someone could attach something to the phone line [48:25] that would send an electric current [48:27] and then a repairman who was up on a pole would get shot [48:30] and go falling to his death. [48:31] This argument works for a while, by the way. [48:33] Yes, it does. [48:35] And I remember he said, does that ever happen? [48:37] No, no, but there's always the first time. [48:41] So there's always the first time. [48:43] And, you know, they had all these other things dangerous, [48:46] unhygienic, you know, spread disease. [48:49] They insist, and they refuse to comply with the FCC rules. [48:52] They do all these things. [48:53] They insist on people having what they call [48:55] a protective coupler. [48:56] So it's something you attach between the network [48:59] and their devices. [49:01] Their refusal to deal with, [49:03] and I think this is, you know, kind of the end point. [49:05] Their refusal to obey the FCC's rules on attachments [49:10] is a big part of what leads to the final antitrust lawsuit [49:14] that leads to their total breakup [49:16] into nine different companies. [49:17] So the end of the Bell Empire, the old Bell Empire, [49:21] is on the back of their refusal to let consumers attach, [49:26] you know, whatever they wanted to their own walls. [49:29] Yeah, and it came just out of this, [49:30] you know, kind of control freak mania [49:32] that eventually led to a total breakup. [49:34] And I bring it back to this phone, right? [49:35] This phone represents the enlightened monopoly. [49:39] We're gonna hire the designer. [49:41] He's gonna look at how people are actually using the stuff, [49:43] and we're gonna gently curve the inside of the handset [49:47] so that your ear can fit into it, [49:48] and we will deliver unto you the perfect phone, [49:51] and it shall remain unchanged for 40 years. [49:55] And then you're like, or you could have a phone jack, [49:56] and now Sony can make phones, [49:58] and Panasonic can make phones, [49:59] and like, let a thousand flowers bloom, [50:02] and the fight against it's so hard, you kill yourself. [50:05] And then you reform yourself like the Terminator, [50:07] which is what the AT&T fully did. [50:09] But that version of AT&T killed itself [50:13] over not letting people compete with this device. [50:16] And I think that is just so fascinating, [50:18] because again, this thing is fully mechanical. [50:22] It is obvious how it works. [50:24] If you wanted to make a phone that connects it [50:25] to AT&T's network and worked exactly like this one, [50:28] all you have to do is open it up, [50:29] which is very easy to do, [50:31] look at it and say, well, this is how it works. [50:32] I can make my own. [50:33] And it wasn't, you know, cryptographic signatures [50:36] or DRM or secret passcodes or whatever. [50:39] It was, we're gonna take you to court and kill you. [50:42] And they were just really, really good at that [50:45] to keep people from using their network. [50:47] You know, I mentioned ancient Rome, [50:48] but there's certainly something of a Greek tragedy [50:51] to the whole story about it. [50:53] There was something beautiful and admirable [50:55] about the AT&T empire, [50:56] but ultimately their hubris, [50:59] their desire to, you know, [51:02] be the one perfect network to control everything, [51:05] that ultimately led to their downfall. [51:07] This has been terrific topic. [51:08] I can't, I wish we had another couple hours [51:11] to talk about the workings of AT&T. [51:14] The good news is we'll have more chances, [51:15] but for now, Tim, we should let you go. [51:17] You've got, you've got, you know, [51:18] fancy government things to do, [51:20] but thank you again, Tim. [51:21] Hope all goes well. [51:21] Appreciate it. [51:22] Hey guys, it's been great. [51:23] I enjoyed it. [51:24] Goodbye. [51:24] All right. [51:24] We got to take one more break [51:26] and then Neil and I are going to come back [51:27] and do the version history questions. [51:28] We'll be right back. [51:33] All right, we're back. [51:34] It's time as always to do [51:35] the eight version history questions, [51:36] the question we ask about every product. [51:38] Neil, it's just you and me. [51:40] Yeah. [51:40] We will carry on Tim's legacy. [51:42] Um, the first question as always is, [51:45] is the time matrix a concept everyone loves [51:47] and has no questions about. [51:50] This is, this is, we're plotting ideas against time. [51:53] Was this the right idea at the right time? [51:55] The right idea at the wrong time. [51:56] Wrong idea. [51:57] What's the most this can be? [51:59] This is the most right idea at the most right time. [52:02] You think so? [52:02] Yeah. [52:03] This phone in particular. [52:04] So what I wanted is I wanted, [52:05] I want to divorce like the bigger picture, [52:07] everything from this. [52:08] And I want to specifically talk about like [52:10] this phone in 1949 and 1950. [52:14] Yeah. [52:15] I'm saying it's the most ready at the most right time. [52:17] Imagine if like Mark Zuckerberg [52:19] had your best interests in heart. [52:21] Do you know what I mean? [52:22] Like this is the product of enlightened monopoly [52:25] in that post-war period. [52:27] Like America is at its fullest flower [52:30] and this phone exists. [52:31] I will say it was the single most [52:33] interesting thing about researching [52:35] this whole thing was, [52:36] we talked about this a little bit is like, [52:38] I think I believe Theodore Vail, [52:41] when he said he actually cares about people [52:43] and wants to do a good job [52:44] and make a nice thing for everybody. [52:46] I also think he made a lot of money on the way, [52:48] but I also think like a lot of this, [52:51] our whole country is premised on the idea [52:53] that you can do good and make a lot of money. [52:55] And that those two things can exist together. [52:57] Yeah, I mean, these are the guys [52:58] who are like getting out of their weird, [53:00] like streamlined limousines [53:01] and like kicking nickels to the street urchins, right? [53:04] Yeah, it wasn't all great. [53:05] But I think the idea of like, [53:07] we want you to regulate us, [53:08] but we think we can build the best network [53:10] and that actually everybody benefits [53:11] from the network being fully connected. [53:13] I buy that whole theory all at once [53:15] in ways I did not expect you coming into this. [53:18] But what I wonder about [53:19] where this goes on the matrix, [53:20] I think right idea is very clear, right? [53:22] Like this thing was this represented [53:24] like the absolute maximum vision of something. [53:28] I think if you take away [53:29] all the stuff you're talking about [53:30] in like the 20s, 30s and 40s, right? [53:32] Where there were other priorities, [53:35] there was this huge sort of stop in innovation [53:37] because of the Great Depression. [53:39] Could AT&T have gotten to this idea 20 years sooner [53:43] and been had something even more powerful [53:45] happen as a result? [53:46] Could we have like sped up a century of innovation [53:49] if AT&T had gotten to this thing sooner? [53:52] No, I really don't think so. [53:53] I mean, this thing is a marvel [53:56] of plastics engineering. [53:58] It's true, right? [53:58] It's a marvel of like electronic miniaturization. [54:02] There's a whole bunch of just [54:03] World War II era defense spending [54:06] embodied in this phone. [54:07] Yeah. [54:07] And maybe if the whole of all of history is different. [54:12] But like in the timeline we live in, [54:15] I'm saying this is the right product culturally. [54:19] It represents, I think Tim called it, [54:21] Noblesse Oliget. [54:22] Like it represents a different attitude [54:25] towards the responsibility of billionaires [54:28] across the board. [54:29] And it hit at a time [54:32] when all the people in the post for a period [54:34] were interested in new ideas, [54:36] in new connections, in new ways. [54:37] Like it just doesn't get better than this moment, [54:40] I don't think. [54:40] Yeah, I think I agree. [54:41] This might be the most up and to the right [54:44] we've ever had on this show. [54:45] Yeah. [54:46] The way you describe it. [54:48] All right, right idea, right time. [54:49] I feel good about it. [54:50] All right, question number two. [54:52] Was this peak anything? [54:54] I think this more than most [54:55] has the chance to do a lot of things. [54:56] And I want to offer you several. [54:57] Okay. [54:58] Was this peak phone ringer? [54:59] I just want, I like, I want to point out. [55:02] This was, you can still, [55:03] Andrew Morino, our producer, [55:04] pointed out to me this morning. [55:06] This ringer exists on the iPhone today. [55:08] It's called old phone. [55:10] You can make your phone sound like this now [55:12] and you should. [55:12] It's not going to come through because, [55:17] you know, it's microphones, [55:18] the internet and YouTube compression in person. [55:21] That physical bell ringing sounds so good. [55:25] It does. [55:26] It is just a remarkably good sounding thing. [55:29] Even though it still provokes in me [55:31] the sense of panic that I need to run downstairs [55:34] and answer the phone [55:34] before my mom talks to my girlfriend. [55:36] Were you instructed on how to answer the phone? [55:38] Like as a kid, did you have, [55:39] I was told very specifically that I was to say pierces. [55:42] This is David when I picked up the phone. [55:44] That was how I answered the phone my whole childhood. [55:45] No, I think we were just, we were all just freestyling. [55:48] You were just like, what up? [55:50] It's your boy, Eli. [55:51] Well, so my parents were doctors. [55:52] So the hospital was always called our house. [55:54] Sure. [55:55] And so like the only thing [55:56] that ever really happened [55:56] was someone would ask for a doctor to tell [55:58] and I would have to say, which one? [55:59] It's a baller thing to say. [56:01] It was both of them. [56:02] Yeah. [56:02] That was pretty good. [56:03] That was very good. [56:04] Okay, so I think, I think pink, [56:06] pink ringer is yes, for sure. [56:08] Was this peak handset [56:11] just like the feeling of holding a phone? [56:13] I think the, yeah, that's pretty good. [56:15] It's very good. [56:16] I think it's possible that the, [56:17] the trim line, the one that came after [56:19] was a little more sort of comfortable [56:21] to do the like snuggle it between your shoulder. [56:23] The trim line was the one [56:24] where they started selling those big foam attachments. [56:26] Yes. [56:27] That you would lean up against. [56:28] I don't know. [56:29] I think this, this one has a strong, [56:32] a strong case to be made. [56:33] I do think the fact [56:34] that you just immediately picked it up [56:36] in one hand, put it to your ear [56:37] in the other hand and felt powerful [56:39] is like there's something, [56:40] there's something to that. [56:40] The trim line never made [56:41] anybody feel powerful. [56:42] No, it didn't. [56:43] The trim line made you feel [56:44] like you were trying to reschedule a flight. [56:45] The trim line, it was that [56:46] or it like you're, you're a high school girl [56:49] like lying on the ground, [56:50] kicking your legs in the air. [56:51] Like that's the trim line. [56:53] You know what I mean? [56:54] And then, okay, one other one [56:55] that I was thinking about [56:56] and I'm curious if you have any others. [56:57] Was this peak AT&T? [56:59] Like does this thing represent [57:02] enlightened monopoly AT&T? [57:04] That version of like AT&T [57:07] at its absolute most powerful [57:09] is this phone that moment. [57:10] Yes. [57:11] And I think the argument of this episode [57:12] is this phone represents [57:13] the beginning of the end. [57:14] I think that's right. [57:15] The only case against it [57:16] I think is like by now the, [57:19] there is an antitrust fight started [57:21] that will like the extent [57:23] to which all of this stuff happens [57:24] in like 18 months is nuts, right? [57:26] This phone comes out [57:27] and sort of establishes AT&T [57:29] in people's houses in a new way. [57:31] There's an antitrust fight [57:32] that comes out. [57:33] Hush-a-phone is going on. [57:34] So like all the cracks are coming [57:36] even as AT&T is flexing its power. [57:38] Right, that's what I mean. [57:39] It's the beginning of the end. [57:40] This is, if you are AT&T [57:42] and you're the enlightened monopolist, [57:45] you've made this product [57:47] because this is your, [57:48] this is you keeping your promise. [57:49] Yeah. [57:50] And then all around you [57:52] is your downfall. [57:54] So everybody is like creeping [57:55] up the mountain towards it [57:56] but this phone just sits alone [57:58] at the top of the mountain. [57:58] Yeah. [57:59] Okay. [57:59] I agree. [58:00] I think that's right. [58:00] Did you have anything else? [58:01] Peak anything? [58:02] No, I mean, fundamentally, [58:03] I think this phone just represents [58:05] peak America in that way. [58:07] Like it is a symbol [58:10] of a particular kind of America. [58:12] And this is like everybody [58:13] in today's America [58:14] like longs for, [58:16] for I would say many incorrect reasons, [58:19] a moment in history [58:20] that was this moment. [58:22] Yeah. [58:22] Like there's so many people [58:24] who were like life was better [58:24] in the fifties. [58:26] We did it in the fifties. [58:27] There are a lot of people [58:28] who correctly disagree [58:29] with that assessment. [58:30] But there is a very particular [58:32] kind of like Americana America [58:35] that is tied up in this. [58:37] All right. [58:37] Question number three. [58:38] If you could travel back [58:39] knowing everything we know now [58:40] and develop it yourself, [58:41] could you make the product [58:42] more successful? [58:43] And for you, I want to say [58:44] not AT&T. [58:47] This product. [58:48] I'm not asking [58:48] could you fix AT&T? [58:50] Could you make this phone [58:52] a bigger hit? [58:53] And I want to offer you one idea. [58:55] Okay. [58:56] That I don't think is true [58:57] but I think is an interesting [58:58] sort of counterfactual. [58:59] If AT&T had embraced the idea [59:01] of this as a more open ecosystem, [59:03] allow the Hush-a-phone, [59:05] allow the Carter phone, [59:06] like buy into the idea [59:07] that actually we want to be [59:08] the center of a larger [59:10] gadget ecosystem around your phones. [59:11] Maybe this. [59:12] Oh, mine is so much dumber. [59:13] Okay. [59:14] It's so much dumber. [59:15] You're like, [59:16] you're off in the weeds. [59:17] Yeah, what do you got? [59:17] See the cord? [59:18] The cord is fixed [59:20] on these phones. [59:22] You would just make it longer. [59:25] This is the big problem [59:26] with these phones. [59:27] This cord in particular [59:28] was quite short, [59:29] which limited where you could put it. [59:30] Eventually, [59:31] when the phone jack came out [59:33] and everything was [59:34] sort of modular in that way, [59:35] like long phone cords [59:37] are an innovation. [59:38] Oh, yeah. [59:38] You would see them places. [59:39] I remember you have the one [59:40] that was like high up on the wall [59:42] and the cord would touch the floor. [59:44] Yes, exactly. [59:44] He was like 15 feet of cord. [59:46] Yeah, exactly. [59:47] That's my one innovation [59:49] for this device. [59:49] That's pretty good. [59:50] I'm very much in favor [59:51] of rotary dials, I think. [59:54] Just the idea of the work required [59:56] to make a phone call [59:57] is a good thing [59:58] and I think we should bring that back. [59:59] You should have to know [01:00:00] someone's number [01:00:01] and do it for one whole minute [01:00:02] before you're allowed [01:00:03] to make a phone call. [01:00:04] That's the thing, I believe. [01:00:05] Question number four, [01:00:06] will the youth ever make it cool again? [01:00:08] And the broadest version [01:00:09] of this question is, [01:00:10] is there a landline revolution upon us? [01:00:13] Because I would like [01:00:14] to very briefly make the case [01:00:15] that it is in very small ways [01:00:17] kind of happening. [01:00:18] There's this company called Tin Can [01:00:20] that has built these sort [01:00:21] of closed networks [01:00:22] for neighborhoods and friend groups. [01:00:23] This is the hottest present [01:00:24] for the seven-year-old girls. [01:00:25] This is like a thing [01:00:26] that is happening. [01:00:27] But I wonder, is there a phone [01:00:29] as A, object for phone calls [01:00:32] and B, dedicated phone call [01:00:34] making device? [01:00:37] Is there a possibility [01:00:39] of a comeback for that? [01:00:40] I feel like all of this [01:00:41] runs into the reality [01:00:43] of how the networks themselves work. [01:00:46] Tin Can is like its own [01:00:47] little weird wi-fi calling service. [01:00:49] Yeah. [01:00:49] They actually want to make phone calls. [01:00:51] The best way to do it [01:00:52] is to be a weird Bluetooth [01:00:55] handset for a cell phone. [01:00:57] And all of that sucks. [01:00:58] I would love it [01:00:59] if landline's made a comeback [01:01:02] and we were all made [01:01:03] more intentional phone calls [01:01:04] and we would schedule the calls [01:01:05] the way that we used to do [01:01:06] with my family. [01:01:08] But it's because [01:01:10] there's no way to build that [01:01:11] without a cell phone right now. [01:01:13] Or no efficient way [01:01:14] or cost-effective way to do it. [01:01:15] And you're kind of like, [01:01:16] well, I'm just Bluetoothing [01:01:17] into my cell phone over there. [01:01:19] I might as well watch TikTok. [01:01:21] So I think that the Tin Can's the world. [01:01:23] And this stuff is really, [01:01:26] I've got an elementary school daughter. [01:01:28] Like, they all want these products. [01:01:30] Yeah. [01:01:30] Because we won't let them in cell phones. [01:01:31] Really? Like Tin Can is cool? [01:01:33] Interesting. [01:01:33] It was also that for Christmas. [01:01:34] Really? [01:01:35] Yeah. [01:01:35] So you can just see [01:01:36] that there's something else happening there. [01:01:38] But I think that's because [01:01:38] the parents are so opposed [01:01:41] to giving out cell phones. [01:01:42] So you were basically [01:01:43] just shoving them back [01:01:44] into the AT&T paradigm. [01:01:46] That's fair. [01:01:47] This does kind of bleed [01:01:48] into question number five, [01:01:50] which is what feature of this product [01:01:51] should every current version have? [01:01:52] To me, the answer is blindingly obvious. [01:01:54] It's good sounding phone calls. [01:01:55] Yeah, obviously. [01:01:57] And I think if the answer [01:01:58] is good sounding phone calls, [01:01:59] that bleeds back into the other thing. [01:02:01] Like, I was thinking about this [01:02:02] with video chat, right? [01:02:04] There's an argument to be made [01:02:05] that there's no going back to phone calls [01:02:06] because video chat has just eaten it alive. [01:02:08] And if you're a young person, [01:02:10] you associate calling somebody [01:02:11] with looking at them. [01:02:13] Those sound like shit too. [01:02:14] Because you're either, [01:02:15] you're holding your phone [01:02:16] far away from your face [01:02:17] so that you can see, [01:02:17] which kills the sound quality. [01:02:19] You're talking into a laptop [01:02:21] from far away, [01:02:21] which kills the sound quality. [01:02:22] Like, there is no version of this thing [01:02:24] that is set up to make anything sound good. [01:02:28] Because sounding good is not important. [01:02:30] Yeah. [01:02:30] But I honestly do believe [01:02:32] that if you could bring back [01:02:34] the actual fidelity [01:02:35] that we've lost over the decades, [01:02:37] it would make it more compelling [01:02:39] for people to do it more often. [01:02:40] Oh, I absolutely know so. [01:02:41] Phone calls are awful. [01:02:42] When it changed, oddly, was the pandemic. [01:02:45] I really, people got so used to Zoom [01:02:47] and they got used to this huge quality [01:02:49] degradation because the point [01:02:51] was just to communicate. [01:02:52] Right. [01:02:52] So you would accept almost anything [01:02:54] as long as you could get [01:02:54] the bare bones of communication across. [01:02:57] For sure. [01:02:58] Before that, I would do TV hits [01:03:00] and if you would go on the radio or TV, [01:03:03] all the producers would say, [01:03:04] can you get to a landline? [01:03:05] Oh yeah, that's true. [01:03:06] They would ask you every time, [01:03:07] can you get to the landline? [01:03:08] That's right. [01:03:08] They cared about the quality [01:03:09] and then the pandemic hit [01:03:10] and everyone was like, yeah, Zoom's fine. [01:03:12] And that's like a little marker. [01:03:15] It's obviously not everyone's [01:03:16] having that experience. [01:03:16] But to me, it was [01:03:18] when the radio producers gave up [01:03:20] on sound quality. [01:03:21] It was like, there's no hope [01:03:22] for anyone else. [01:03:23] These are the last people in America [01:03:24] who truly care and it's gone. [01:03:27] I'm a nihilist about people [01:03:28] caring about audio quality, as you know. [01:03:31] I don't know if that one's coming back. [01:03:33] I think you're right, but I wish it would. [01:03:35] And I think a lot of things [01:03:36] would get better if it did. [01:03:37] All right, now we have three questions left. [01:03:38] These are the Virgin History Hall [01:03:39] of Fame questions. [01:03:40] A product has to pass all three [01:03:41] of these tests to make it [01:03:42] into the Virgin History Hall of Fame. [01:03:44] Question number one, [01:03:45] did this product do something [01:03:47] truly new? [01:03:48] Again, not AT&T. [01:03:49] This is the Western Electric 500, [01:03:51] about which I actually think [01:03:52] this question is harder [01:03:53] than a lot of episodes. [01:03:54] Yeah, this is very difficult. [01:03:55] I would say yes. [01:03:57] To your point about design. [01:03:59] This is a design consumer product [01:04:02] in a way that the previous generations [01:04:05] were driven by the technology [01:04:07] instead of the user interface. [01:04:10] I think I agree. [01:04:10] I think there is a case to be made [01:04:12] that the answer is yes [01:04:14] for the one before this, [01:04:15] that actually this is the iteration [01:04:18] on a brand new idea [01:04:20] that is ultimately [01:04:21] what makes these things successful. [01:04:22] But I think there is some combination [01:04:24] of like you could control [01:04:27] the loudness of it. [01:04:28] The dialer was simpler. [01:04:30] There's just a lot of like little bits [01:04:32] and pieces that I do think [01:04:32] added up to something. [01:04:34] Genuinely. [01:04:35] It's the refined version [01:04:36] of the big idea. [01:04:37] Yeah, which is that refinement. [01:04:38] For me that refinement [01:04:39] counts for a lot. [01:04:40] Yeah, I think I agree. [01:04:41] Yeah, we can't give it credit [01:04:42] for being pink. [01:04:43] We should say like Andrew [01:04:45] learned in his video [01:04:45] this is a limited edition one [01:04:47] and we're very proud of this. [01:04:49] But we don't get credit for being pink [01:04:50] because it wasn't at first [01:04:52] but that was also a big deal. [01:04:53] The idea that there were new colors. [01:04:55] They did lots of different designs. [01:04:56] There was one called The Princess. [01:04:58] Like lots of new ideas [01:04:59] about what a phone should mean [01:05:00] in people's lives [01:05:00] that I think did start here. [01:05:02] Question number two, [01:05:04] was this either remarkably good [01:05:05] or remarkably bad? [01:05:07] It's remarkably good. [01:05:08] That's the answer. [01:05:08] I think it was. [01:05:09] I realized about halfway through the episode [01:05:11] I had not expected this thing [01:05:12] to get into the Hall of Fame [01:05:13] and it just obviously is. [01:05:14] It's obviously very helpful. [01:05:15] This thing is very important. [01:05:16] It's like why we're here [01:05:17] but also I think it's not only [01:05:19] is it very important. [01:05:20] Like we picked this [01:05:21] to sort of mark a moment [01:05:22] in a bigger story [01:05:24] but I do think this thing [01:05:25] is more of a moment [01:05:26] in that story [01:05:26] than I realized [01:05:27] when I started this process. [01:05:28] I mean also they [01:05:29] shipped it unchanged for four years. [01:05:31] I know. [01:05:32] You're just kind of like [01:05:33] well, it goes in. [01:05:35] Yeah. [01:05:35] Imagine if you were still [01:05:36] using an iPhone one [01:05:37] because it was good enough. [01:05:38] It did the thing. [01:05:39] That's crazy. [01:05:40] What's funny is [01:05:41] we never got to test the theory [01:05:42] because like there was no competition. [01:05:44] It wasn't useful [01:05:45] to compete with this. [01:05:46] Nobody tried [01:05:47] because you couldn't [01:05:48] get into the network. [01:05:49] Connect to the network. [01:05:50] Yeah. [01:05:50] There was only one company making this [01:05:53] and like we said [01:05:53] they had incentives to make it good. [01:05:55] They had incentives [01:05:55] to make people like it [01:05:56] and use it. [01:05:57] There were lots of reasons [01:05:58] that it is as good as it is [01:06:01] but it is a fun sort [01:06:02] of counter history. [01:06:03] What if there had been honest [01:06:05] to God free market competition [01:06:06] much sooner? [01:06:07] Would somebody have done [01:06:08] a much better job [01:06:09] than this much sooner? [01:06:11] Maybe you can see [01:06:12] that the second [01:06:13] that the phone jack hit [01:06:14] like all that's rough. [01:06:15] Yeah, but it got. [01:06:16] You want a weird cordless phone [01:06:17] like we'll send you one. [01:06:18] It's almost a shame [01:06:19] that we didn't get a longer [01:06:21] run of the telephone [01:06:23] before it became [01:06:24] all these other things [01:06:25] because like telephone innovation [01:06:26] essentially sort of dies [01:06:28] at the hands of all [01:06:29] these other new things [01:06:30] that are being invented [01:06:31] and everybody goes [01:06:31] and finds more exciting things [01:06:32] to work on like computers [01:06:34] and televisions and all these. [01:06:36] So it's not like [01:06:36] there is some multi-generational [01:06:39] fascinating new kind of telephone [01:06:42] over the years [01:06:42] which I think is one of the reasons [01:06:43] this thing lives [01:06:43] as long as it does [01:06:44] is that even when other stuff [01:06:45] comes along [01:06:46] it's not like [01:06:47] there are 100 brand new ideas [01:06:48] about how to make phone calls. [01:06:49] I feel like we could [01:06:50] we're going to have to do [01:06:51] the entire episode [01:06:52] on that one Panasonic [01:06:53] answering machine [01:06:54] that they used [01:06:55] in the movie Sneakers. [01:06:56] Like I made sure [01:06:57] that my family [01:06:58] had that answering machine. [01:06:59] Yeah. [01:07:00] It was overshadowed. [01:07:01] I agree with you. [01:07:01] Overshadow is a good way. [01:07:02] But it did continue [01:07:03] for quite quite a long time. [01:07:04] Yeah, I agree. [01:07:05] Alright and then [01:07:05] question number three [01:07:06] and I think this is [01:07:06] this might actually be [01:07:07] the easiest one of the three. [01:07:08] Did this thing have [01:07:09] a lasting impact? [01:07:10] Did it capital M matter? [01:07:12] You know what? [01:07:14] This answer is like no. [01:07:15] Really? [01:07:17] It did it but you know [01:07:18] it was like forced [01:07:19] on the American public. [01:07:21] And so I think matter [01:07:23] is when it impacts [01:07:25] the culture on its own merits. [01:07:27] Yeah. [01:07:27] Yeah, the way we've been [01:07:28] describing it is like [01:07:29] is there is there a world [01:07:30] before this [01:07:30] in a world after it? [01:07:31] Yeah. [01:07:32] And you don't think so? [01:07:33] No. [01:07:34] I mean it was just like [01:07:34] this is a phone. [01:07:35] Like you know [01:07:37] like that's the moon. [01:07:38] Like it's just there it is. [01:07:39] Like does it matter? [01:07:40] Like yeah, [01:07:40] it's pretty important. [01:07:41] Sure. [01:07:42] But like it doesn't [01:07:43] it doesn't warp [01:07:44] the culture around it [01:07:44] in a way that the iPhone [01:07:46] like is like paramount [01:07:47] on this list, right? [01:07:48] Yeah. [01:07:48] Like the culture warps [01:07:51] around the iPhone [01:07:52] in like a very specific way. [01:07:52] Interesting point. [01:07:53] I think this was just like [01:07:55] given to America. [01:07:56] Like here it is. [01:07:57] Right. [01:07:57] And I think [01:07:58] that's actually [01:07:58] really interesting point [01:07:59] because not that long [01:08:00] before this [01:08:01] we were still in the [01:08:04] this is a growth phase. [01:08:05] This is a new thing. [01:08:06] People don't understand [01:08:07] like we're in this sort [01:08:07] of steady march [01:08:08] of this technology [01:08:09] into people's lives. [01:08:11] But I think you're right [01:08:11] at this point [01:08:12] this was ubiquitous. [01:08:13] The things I'm saying [01:08:14] about it that are [01:08:15] very important, right? [01:08:16] This is when it became [01:08:17] a consumer product. [01:08:18] This is when people [01:08:19] would have more than one [01:08:20] of them in their house. [01:08:21] This is when you could [01:08:22] pick it up by this handle, [01:08:23] which I am just [01:08:24] addicted to doing. [01:08:25] Like all that stuff [01:08:26] is very important. [01:08:27] But it's not my relationship [01:08:29] to the phone has changed [01:08:30] or I'm changing my behavior [01:08:32] around this phone. [01:08:33] I still think it goes [01:08:34] in the Hall of Fame. [01:08:35] But like the to me [01:08:37] the matter question is always [01:08:39] it centers around [01:08:40] did the culture change [01:08:41] noticeably after the thing? [01:08:43] And we've done a bunch of episodes [01:08:44] about things where we talk [01:08:45] about it so directly [01:08:46] we don't even notice [01:08:46] that's what we're talking about. [01:08:47] The culture changed [01:08:48] around the TiVo [01:08:49] that we have sitting over there. [01:08:50] It changed around the iPhone. [01:08:52] Did the culture change around this? [01:08:53] Like it's in a bunch of movies. [01:08:55] But the way that we all [01:08:56] use the phone [01:08:57] remained essentially the same [01:08:58] until the network was opened up. [01:09:00] Well, it's an interesting [01:09:01] design fact of it, right? [01:09:02] And this goes back to [01:09:03] like I spent a lot of time [01:09:04] reading about Henry Dreyfus [01:09:05] who I find totally fascinating. [01:09:06] And maybe that was [01:09:08] his great achievement, right? [01:09:09] Was what he did was discover [01:09:11] what people wanted [01:09:12] and what culture was [01:09:14] and hand them [01:09:14] the perfect thing to do that. [01:09:16] He didn't deliver [01:09:17] some brand new idea [01:09:18] about how everything [01:09:18] was supposed to work. [01:09:19] He just like nestled [01:09:20] this thing perfectly [01:09:21] into your life, [01:09:22] which is itself a huge achievement [01:09:23] but is not that kind of like there. [01:09:26] It doesn't create [01:09:27] an inflection point. [01:09:28] Yeah, it just immediately makes [01:09:29] this thing feel completely natural [01:09:31] in your house. [01:09:32] Yeah, which is a very different [01:09:34] way of thinking about innovation. [01:09:36] But is I think in many ways [01:09:38] just as innovative [01:09:39] like to build a thing [01:09:40] that immediately feels [01:09:41] like you've had it forever [01:09:43] is very hard to do. [01:09:44] Yeah, what it reflected [01:09:45] was the power of the network. [01:09:46] The network obviously matters, right? [01:09:49] And this is the way to access [01:09:50] the network that AT&T [01:09:51] is instructing you to do. [01:09:53] Because you're not making a choice, [01:09:54] I think the matters question [01:09:55] gets very difficult. [01:09:56] Yeah, so okay. [01:09:57] So just to be clear, [01:09:58] you think the answer [01:09:59] to number three is no, [01:09:59] but you still want to put it [01:10:00] in the Hall of Fame. [01:10:01] Yeah, absolutely. [01:10:02] Yeah, it's like what do you want from me? [01:10:05] Listen, the people out there [01:10:07] who say the Hall of Fame [01:10:08] needs stricter rules. [01:10:10] We're going to have a field day [01:10:11] with this one. [01:10:11] It's obviously in the Hall of Fame. [01:10:13] I'm just the point that I'm making [01:10:15] is that the element of choice [01:10:18] makes the matter question [01:10:20] so much different. [01:10:21] You can obviously make the argument [01:10:23] that this thing matters, [01:10:24] capital M. [01:10:25] My rubric is that it's when [01:10:29] everyone's behavior changes [01:10:30] by choice. [01:10:31] That's when you win. [01:10:32] Yeah, obviously it goes [01:10:33] in the Hall of Fame. [01:10:34] Okay, I think this thing represents [01:10:35] like every idea [01:10:35] we've ever had at the verge. [01:10:37] I know I'm with you. [01:10:38] We're going to put it in [01:10:38] for that reason [01:10:39] and also because I keep looking [01:10:40] at the shot that we're doing here [01:10:41] and we've done a lot [01:10:42] of these episodes now. [01:10:43] Nothing has ever looked as good [01:10:44] on the desk as this phone. [01:10:45] Do you see what I'm saying? [01:10:46] Like as just an object. [01:10:48] I am in love with this thing. [01:10:50] Yeah, everything else [01:10:50] like a black rectangle. [01:10:51] Yeah, that's what I mean. [01:10:53] Yeah, so for that reason alone, [01:10:54] it gets in. [01:10:55] We're bending the rules. [01:10:56] It looks sick. [01:10:58] Secret fourth category. [01:10:59] This is why Hall of Fame rules [01:11:00] are famously secretive [01:11:01] because it's just a bunch of men [01:11:03] with bad ideas. [01:11:04] Yeah, five hundred. [01:11:06] Weston, I'll check 500 in. [01:11:08] Bill Bell, I'll check out. [01:11:09] Feels good to me. [01:11:10] Yeah. [01:11:10] Alright, Neelai, thank you. [01:11:11] This has been a delight. [01:11:13] Nothing like having a reason [01:11:14] to talk about monopolies. [01:11:16] Thank you again to Tim Wu [01:11:17] for being here. [01:11:18] Read the master switch. [01:11:19] Read the Age of Extraction. [01:11:20] Follow him in all [01:11:21] of his many internet travails. 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